Is there a continuous monotone function that fails to be differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$?












0














My textbook is asking to construct such a function, but this thread seems to say that's not possible. What am I missing here? I want to construct a function that's not differentiable for $x=c$, for any $c$ in the interval.



I am referring to part B below: this problem.










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 2




    Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 14:00






  • 1




    Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 at 14:14










  • @Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 14:20










  • @XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 at 14:23












  • @bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
    – Shubham
    Nov 29 at 14:58
















0














My textbook is asking to construct such a function, but this thread seems to say that's not possible. What am I missing here? I want to construct a function that's not differentiable for $x=c$, for any $c$ in the interval.



I am referring to part B below: this problem.










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 2




    Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 14:00






  • 1




    Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 at 14:14










  • @Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 14:20










  • @XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 at 14:23












  • @bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
    – Shubham
    Nov 29 at 14:58














0












0








0


1





My textbook is asking to construct such a function, but this thread seems to say that's not possible. What am I missing here? I want to construct a function that's not differentiable for $x=c$, for any $c$ in the interval.



I am referring to part B below: this problem.










share|cite|improve this question















My textbook is asking to construct such a function, but this thread seems to say that's not possible. What am I missing here? I want to construct a function that's not differentiable for $x=c$, for any $c$ in the interval.



I am referring to part B below: this problem.







calculus real-analysis integration derivatives






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Nov 29 at 14:02

























asked Nov 29 at 13:59









bob

1089




1089








  • 2




    Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 14:00






  • 1




    Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 at 14:14










  • @Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 14:20










  • @XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 at 14:23












  • @bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
    – Shubham
    Nov 29 at 14:58














  • 2




    Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 14:00






  • 1




    Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 at 14:14










  • @Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 14:20










  • @XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
    – Arthur
    Nov 29 at 14:23












  • @bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
    – Shubham
    Nov 29 at 14:58








2




2




Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 at 14:00




Nowhere differentiable is not the same as being non-differentiable on a dense set.
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 at 14:00




1




1




Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
– Arthur
Nov 29 at 14:14




Maybe one can do something similar to the Devil's staircase?
– Arthur
Nov 29 at 14:14












@Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 at 14:20




@Arthur The Cantor function is only non-differentiable on the Cantor set, which is not dense in $mathbb{R}$.
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 at 14:20












@XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
– Arthur
Nov 29 at 14:23






@XanderHenderson Which is why I didn't post it as an answer. I don't even know if the approach is possible to adapt to a dense set.
– Arthur
Nov 29 at 14:23














@bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
– Shubham
Nov 29 at 14:58




@bob Can you tell from which book you found this excercise?
– Shubham
Nov 29 at 14:58










1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes


















6














The question to which you have linked discusses the impossibility of constructing a function that is continuous, monotone, and nowhere differentiable. However, you are not being asked to construct such a function. You are being asked to construct a continuous, monotone function which is non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$.



My goto example of such a function is a function which has a little "jump" at each rational number. To build such a function, start by defining
$$ f(x) = begin{cases} 1 & text{if $x ge 0$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$
This function has a jump discontinuity at zero.



Next, observe that the rational numbers are countable, which implies that there is a bijection $q : mathbb{N} to mathbb{Q}$ which provides an enumeration of $mathbb{Q}$. Let $q_n := q(n)$ for each $ninmathbb{N}$. At each $n$, we are going to define a function $f_n$ which has a jump discontinuity at $q_n$. In order to ensure that the function we get doesn't "blow up", we are going to build the jumps in such a way that they get small relatively quickly. Specifically, define
$$ f_n(x) := frac{f(x-q_n)}{2^n}. $$
If you prefer something more explicit, note that
$$ f_n(x) = begin{cases} 2^{-n} & text{if $x ge q_n$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$



Because we have chosen the jumps in such a way that they get small fast, we can sum all of these functions and get something that converges. So define
$$ g(x) = sum_{n=1}^{infty} f_n(x). $$
It is not too hard to show that this function converges pointwise and has a discontinuity at every rational number.



Finally, as per the hint in your homework, define
$$ G(x) = int_{a}^x g(x),mathrm{d}x. $$
As per the quoted text, $G$ is not differentiable at any rational number.



Note that I have left out quite a few details which you should fill in. You should make sure that you understand why $mathbb{Q}$ is countable and dense in $mathbb{R}$ (unless these are facts that you are allowed to take for granted).
You should also check that $g$ really is discontinuous at each rational, and you should make sure that you understand why the series defining $g$ actually converges. Finally, it might be a good idea to build $G$ a little more carefully so that it is more artfully restricted to the interval of interest, i.e. the interval $[a,b]$.



EDIT: As per the comment left below by Dave L. Renfro, these kinds of results can be pushed farther to obtain, for example, Lipschitz continuous monotone functions which are non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$. The relevant discussion is contained in this answer to another question on MSE.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
    – Dave L. Renfro
    Nov 29 at 15:09












  • @DaveL.Renfro Nice!
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 18:28











Your Answer





StackExchange.ifUsing("editor", function () {
return StackExchange.using("mathjaxEditing", function () {
StackExchange.MarkdownEditor.creationCallbacks.add(function (editor, postfix) {
StackExchange.mathjaxEditing.prepareWmdForMathJax(editor, postfix, [["$", "$"], ["\\(","\\)"]]);
});
});
}, "mathjax-editing");

StackExchange.ready(function() {
var channelOptions = {
tags: "".split(" "),
id: "69"
};
initTagRenderer("".split(" "), "".split(" "), channelOptions);

StackExchange.using("externalEditor", function() {
// Have to fire editor after snippets, if snippets enabled
if (StackExchange.settings.snippets.snippetsEnabled) {
StackExchange.using("snippets", function() {
createEditor();
});
}
else {
createEditor();
}
});

function createEditor() {
StackExchange.prepareEditor({
heartbeatType: 'answer',
autoActivateHeartbeat: false,
convertImagesToLinks: true,
noModals: true,
showLowRepImageUploadWarning: true,
reputationToPostImages: 10,
bindNavPrevention: true,
postfix: "",
imageUploader: {
brandingHtml: "Powered by u003ca class="icon-imgur-white" href="https://imgur.com/"u003eu003c/au003e",
contentPolicyHtml: "User contributions licensed under u003ca href="https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-sa/3.0/"u003ecc by-sa 3.0 with attribution requiredu003c/au003e u003ca href="https://stackoverflow.com/legal/content-policy"u003e(content policy)u003c/au003e",
allowUrls: true
},
noCode: true, onDemand: true,
discardSelector: ".discard-answer"
,immediatelyShowMarkdownHelp:true
});


}
});














draft saved

draft discarded


















StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3018659%2fis-there-a-continuous-monotone-function-that-fails-to-be-differentiable-on-a-den%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown

























1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes








1 Answer
1






active

oldest

votes









active

oldest

votes






active

oldest

votes









6














The question to which you have linked discusses the impossibility of constructing a function that is continuous, monotone, and nowhere differentiable. However, you are not being asked to construct such a function. You are being asked to construct a continuous, monotone function which is non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$.



My goto example of such a function is a function which has a little "jump" at each rational number. To build such a function, start by defining
$$ f(x) = begin{cases} 1 & text{if $x ge 0$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$
This function has a jump discontinuity at zero.



Next, observe that the rational numbers are countable, which implies that there is a bijection $q : mathbb{N} to mathbb{Q}$ which provides an enumeration of $mathbb{Q}$. Let $q_n := q(n)$ for each $ninmathbb{N}$. At each $n$, we are going to define a function $f_n$ which has a jump discontinuity at $q_n$. In order to ensure that the function we get doesn't "blow up", we are going to build the jumps in such a way that they get small relatively quickly. Specifically, define
$$ f_n(x) := frac{f(x-q_n)}{2^n}. $$
If you prefer something more explicit, note that
$$ f_n(x) = begin{cases} 2^{-n} & text{if $x ge q_n$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$



Because we have chosen the jumps in such a way that they get small fast, we can sum all of these functions and get something that converges. So define
$$ g(x) = sum_{n=1}^{infty} f_n(x). $$
It is not too hard to show that this function converges pointwise and has a discontinuity at every rational number.



Finally, as per the hint in your homework, define
$$ G(x) = int_{a}^x g(x),mathrm{d}x. $$
As per the quoted text, $G$ is not differentiable at any rational number.



Note that I have left out quite a few details which you should fill in. You should make sure that you understand why $mathbb{Q}$ is countable and dense in $mathbb{R}$ (unless these are facts that you are allowed to take for granted).
You should also check that $g$ really is discontinuous at each rational, and you should make sure that you understand why the series defining $g$ actually converges. Finally, it might be a good idea to build $G$ a little more carefully so that it is more artfully restricted to the interval of interest, i.e. the interval $[a,b]$.



EDIT: As per the comment left below by Dave L. Renfro, these kinds of results can be pushed farther to obtain, for example, Lipschitz continuous monotone functions which are non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$. The relevant discussion is contained in this answer to another question on MSE.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
    – Dave L. Renfro
    Nov 29 at 15:09












  • @DaveL.Renfro Nice!
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 18:28
















6














The question to which you have linked discusses the impossibility of constructing a function that is continuous, monotone, and nowhere differentiable. However, you are not being asked to construct such a function. You are being asked to construct a continuous, monotone function which is non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$.



My goto example of such a function is a function which has a little "jump" at each rational number. To build such a function, start by defining
$$ f(x) = begin{cases} 1 & text{if $x ge 0$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$
This function has a jump discontinuity at zero.



Next, observe that the rational numbers are countable, which implies that there is a bijection $q : mathbb{N} to mathbb{Q}$ which provides an enumeration of $mathbb{Q}$. Let $q_n := q(n)$ for each $ninmathbb{N}$. At each $n$, we are going to define a function $f_n$ which has a jump discontinuity at $q_n$. In order to ensure that the function we get doesn't "blow up", we are going to build the jumps in such a way that they get small relatively quickly. Specifically, define
$$ f_n(x) := frac{f(x-q_n)}{2^n}. $$
If you prefer something more explicit, note that
$$ f_n(x) = begin{cases} 2^{-n} & text{if $x ge q_n$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$



Because we have chosen the jumps in such a way that they get small fast, we can sum all of these functions and get something that converges. So define
$$ g(x) = sum_{n=1}^{infty} f_n(x). $$
It is not too hard to show that this function converges pointwise and has a discontinuity at every rational number.



Finally, as per the hint in your homework, define
$$ G(x) = int_{a}^x g(x),mathrm{d}x. $$
As per the quoted text, $G$ is not differentiable at any rational number.



Note that I have left out quite a few details which you should fill in. You should make sure that you understand why $mathbb{Q}$ is countable and dense in $mathbb{R}$ (unless these are facts that you are allowed to take for granted).
You should also check that $g$ really is discontinuous at each rational, and you should make sure that you understand why the series defining $g$ actually converges. Finally, it might be a good idea to build $G$ a little more carefully so that it is more artfully restricted to the interval of interest, i.e. the interval $[a,b]$.



EDIT: As per the comment left below by Dave L. Renfro, these kinds of results can be pushed farther to obtain, for example, Lipschitz continuous monotone functions which are non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$. The relevant discussion is contained in this answer to another question on MSE.






share|cite|improve this answer























  • Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
    – Dave L. Renfro
    Nov 29 at 15:09












  • @DaveL.Renfro Nice!
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 18:28














6












6








6






The question to which you have linked discusses the impossibility of constructing a function that is continuous, monotone, and nowhere differentiable. However, you are not being asked to construct such a function. You are being asked to construct a continuous, monotone function which is non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$.



My goto example of such a function is a function which has a little "jump" at each rational number. To build such a function, start by defining
$$ f(x) = begin{cases} 1 & text{if $x ge 0$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$
This function has a jump discontinuity at zero.



Next, observe that the rational numbers are countable, which implies that there is a bijection $q : mathbb{N} to mathbb{Q}$ which provides an enumeration of $mathbb{Q}$. Let $q_n := q(n)$ for each $ninmathbb{N}$. At each $n$, we are going to define a function $f_n$ which has a jump discontinuity at $q_n$. In order to ensure that the function we get doesn't "blow up", we are going to build the jumps in such a way that they get small relatively quickly. Specifically, define
$$ f_n(x) := frac{f(x-q_n)}{2^n}. $$
If you prefer something more explicit, note that
$$ f_n(x) = begin{cases} 2^{-n} & text{if $x ge q_n$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$



Because we have chosen the jumps in such a way that they get small fast, we can sum all of these functions and get something that converges. So define
$$ g(x) = sum_{n=1}^{infty} f_n(x). $$
It is not too hard to show that this function converges pointwise and has a discontinuity at every rational number.



Finally, as per the hint in your homework, define
$$ G(x) = int_{a}^x g(x),mathrm{d}x. $$
As per the quoted text, $G$ is not differentiable at any rational number.



Note that I have left out quite a few details which you should fill in. You should make sure that you understand why $mathbb{Q}$ is countable and dense in $mathbb{R}$ (unless these are facts that you are allowed to take for granted).
You should also check that $g$ really is discontinuous at each rational, and you should make sure that you understand why the series defining $g$ actually converges. Finally, it might be a good idea to build $G$ a little more carefully so that it is more artfully restricted to the interval of interest, i.e. the interval $[a,b]$.



EDIT: As per the comment left below by Dave L. Renfro, these kinds of results can be pushed farther to obtain, for example, Lipschitz continuous monotone functions which are non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$. The relevant discussion is contained in this answer to another question on MSE.






share|cite|improve this answer














The question to which you have linked discusses the impossibility of constructing a function that is continuous, monotone, and nowhere differentiable. However, you are not being asked to construct such a function. You are being asked to construct a continuous, monotone function which is non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$.



My goto example of such a function is a function which has a little "jump" at each rational number. To build such a function, start by defining
$$ f(x) = begin{cases} 1 & text{if $x ge 0$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$
This function has a jump discontinuity at zero.



Next, observe that the rational numbers are countable, which implies that there is a bijection $q : mathbb{N} to mathbb{Q}$ which provides an enumeration of $mathbb{Q}$. Let $q_n := q(n)$ for each $ninmathbb{N}$. At each $n$, we are going to define a function $f_n$ which has a jump discontinuity at $q_n$. In order to ensure that the function we get doesn't "blow up", we are going to build the jumps in such a way that they get small relatively quickly. Specifically, define
$$ f_n(x) := frac{f(x-q_n)}{2^n}. $$
If you prefer something more explicit, note that
$$ f_n(x) = begin{cases} 2^{-n} & text{if $x ge q_n$, and} \ 0 & text{otherwise.} end{cases} $$



Because we have chosen the jumps in such a way that they get small fast, we can sum all of these functions and get something that converges. So define
$$ g(x) = sum_{n=1}^{infty} f_n(x). $$
It is not too hard to show that this function converges pointwise and has a discontinuity at every rational number.



Finally, as per the hint in your homework, define
$$ G(x) = int_{a}^x g(x),mathrm{d}x. $$
As per the quoted text, $G$ is not differentiable at any rational number.



Note that I have left out quite a few details which you should fill in. You should make sure that you understand why $mathbb{Q}$ is countable and dense in $mathbb{R}$ (unless these are facts that you are allowed to take for granted).
You should also check that $g$ really is discontinuous at each rational, and you should make sure that you understand why the series defining $g$ actually converges. Finally, it might be a good idea to build $G$ a little more carefully so that it is more artfully restricted to the interval of interest, i.e. the interval $[a,b]$.



EDIT: As per the comment left below by Dave L. Renfro, these kinds of results can be pushed farther to obtain, for example, Lipschitz continuous monotone functions which are non-differentiable on a dense subset of $mathbb{R}$. The relevant discussion is contained in this answer to another question on MSE.







share|cite|improve this answer














share|cite|improve this answer



share|cite|improve this answer








edited Nov 29 at 18:30

























answered Nov 29 at 14:17









Xander Henderson

14.1k103554




14.1k103554












  • Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
    – Dave L. Renfro
    Nov 29 at 15:09












  • @DaveL.Renfro Nice!
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 18:28


















  • Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
    – Dave L. Renfro
    Nov 29 at 15:09












  • @DaveL.Renfro Nice!
    – Xander Henderson
    Nov 29 at 18:28
















Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
– Dave L. Renfro
Nov 29 at 15:09






Regarding how far such examples can be pushed that also satisfy an additional restriction (namely, being Lipschitz continuous), see my answer to Monotone Function, Derivative Limit Bounded, Differentiable - 2.
– Dave L. Renfro
Nov 29 at 15:09














@DaveL.Renfro Nice!
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 at 18:28




@DaveL.Renfro Nice!
– Xander Henderson
Nov 29 at 18:28


















draft saved

draft discarded




















































Thanks for contributing an answer to Mathematics Stack Exchange!


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


Use MathJax to format equations. MathJax reference.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.





Some of your past answers have not been well-received, and you're in danger of being blocked from answering.


Please pay close attention to the following guidance:


  • Please be sure to answer the question. Provide details and share your research!

But avoid



  • Asking for help, clarification, or responding to other answers.

  • Making statements based on opinion; back them up with references or personal experience.


To learn more, see our tips on writing great answers.




draft saved


draft discarded














StackExchange.ready(
function () {
StackExchange.openid.initPostLogin('.new-post-login', 'https%3a%2f%2fmath.stackexchange.com%2fquestions%2f3018659%2fis-there-a-continuous-monotone-function-that-fails-to-be-differentiable-on-a-den%23new-answer', 'question_page');
}
);

Post as a guest















Required, but never shown





















































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown

































Required, but never shown














Required, but never shown












Required, but never shown







Required, but never shown







Popular posts from this blog

Berounka

Sphinx de Gizeh

Different font size/position of beamer's navigation symbols template's content depending on regular/plain...