Is there a non trivial normal subgroup of a group $G$, where $|G|=pm, gcd(p,m)=1$?
In fact, the exercise I'm in is this:
Suppose you have an irreducible polynomial $f(x)in mathbb{Q}[x]$ of degree $p$, where $p$ is a prime. Also suppose that $K$ is a splitting field of $f(x)$ over $mathbb{Q}$.
Prove that:
- $[K:mathbb{Q}]=pm$, where $gcd(p,m)=1$
- If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $mathrm{Gal}(K,mathbb{Q})$ of order $|H|=m$ then $m=1$.
The first part was easy but the second part has something to do with Sylow theorems in which I'm not very keen on.
group-theory finite-groups galois-theory sylow-theory
add a comment |
In fact, the exercise I'm in is this:
Suppose you have an irreducible polynomial $f(x)in mathbb{Q}[x]$ of degree $p$, where $p$ is a prime. Also suppose that $K$ is a splitting field of $f(x)$ over $mathbb{Q}$.
Prove that:
- $[K:mathbb{Q}]=pm$, where $gcd(p,m)=1$
- If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $mathrm{Gal}(K,mathbb{Q})$ of order $|H|=m$ then $m=1$.
The first part was easy but the second part has something to do with Sylow theorems in which I'm not very keen on.
group-theory finite-groups galois-theory sylow-theory
1
$K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 1:23
add a comment |
In fact, the exercise I'm in is this:
Suppose you have an irreducible polynomial $f(x)in mathbb{Q}[x]$ of degree $p$, where $p$ is a prime. Also suppose that $K$ is a splitting field of $f(x)$ over $mathbb{Q}$.
Prove that:
- $[K:mathbb{Q}]=pm$, where $gcd(p,m)=1$
- If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $mathrm{Gal}(K,mathbb{Q})$ of order $|H|=m$ then $m=1$.
The first part was easy but the second part has something to do with Sylow theorems in which I'm not very keen on.
group-theory finite-groups galois-theory sylow-theory
In fact, the exercise I'm in is this:
Suppose you have an irreducible polynomial $f(x)in mathbb{Q}[x]$ of degree $p$, where $p$ is a prime. Also suppose that $K$ is a splitting field of $f(x)$ over $mathbb{Q}$.
Prove that:
- $[K:mathbb{Q}]=pm$, where $gcd(p,m)=1$
- If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $mathrm{Gal}(K,mathbb{Q})$ of order $|H|=m$ then $m=1$.
The first part was easy but the second part has something to do with Sylow theorems in which I'm not very keen on.
group-theory finite-groups galois-theory sylow-theory
group-theory finite-groups galois-theory sylow-theory
edited Jun 16 '16 at 1:28
asked Jun 16 '16 at 0:20
richarddedekind
711316
711316
1
$K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 1:23
add a comment |
1
$K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 1:23
1
1
$K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 1:23
$K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 1:23
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
Answer to your second question: Since $H$ is normal in $G=Gal(K/mathbb{Q})$, $H$ corresponds to a field $E$ such that $mathbb{Q} subseteq E subseteq K$ (more preciously $E=K^{H}$). Now $H$ being normal in $G$ we must have that $E$ is a normal extension of $mathbb{Q}$. (Because $bigcap_{gin G} gHg^{-1}$ corresponds to $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$ and $H$ being normal in $G$ we've $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$=E, which forces $E/mathbb{Q}$ is anormal extension). And as $K/mathbb{Q}$ is itself separable (as it is a Galois extension), $E/mathbb{Q}$ is also separable and hence Galois of degree $p$.
So now by Primitive Element theorem there exists $bin E$ such that $E=mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now if $b$ is root of $f(x)$ then since $E/mathbb{Q}$ is normal $E$ would become a splitting field of $f(x)$ forcing $m=1$. So WLOG $b$ is not a root of $f(x)$. Now pick a root of $f(x)$ $ain F$ to and consider $mathbb{Q}(a,b)/mathbb{Q}$.
Note that $[mathbb{Q}(b):mathbb{Q}]=p$ so now if we can show $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$ then we will get $p^2 mid [K:mathbb{Q}]$ which is a contradiction from first part. So, now we're just left to prove $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$
Suppose not, which means $f(x)$ is reducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now note that $f(x)$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}$ and $mathbb{char}(mathbb{Q})=0$so $f(x)$ is seperable, so it has no multiple roots in any extension of $mathbb{Q}$ and so, $f$ must split into linear factors over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$ (if not then its has a factor of form $g(x)^r$ with $r>1$ and $g$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$, but then any root of $g$ in some extension comes as a root of $f$ with multiplicity more than $1$, contradiction) and so $b$ is a root of $f$ which is a contradiction to our assumption that $b$ is not a root of $f$ and so we're done.
add a comment |
There is the simple counterexample of $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times2$ but its order 2 subgroups are not normal.
In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
– richarddedekind
Jun 16 '16 at 20:05
add a comment |
To answer to the question of the title. Consider the group $G=mathbb{Z}/6mathbb{Z}$, we have $mid G mid = 3times 2$ and $gcd(2,3)=1$. Since $G$ is abelian then $H=langle 2 rangle simeq mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is a non trivial normal subgroup of $G$.
1
This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 13:15
If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
– richarddedekind
Jun 17 '16 at 3:40
add a comment |
Your Answer
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
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Answer to your second question: Since $H$ is normal in $G=Gal(K/mathbb{Q})$, $H$ corresponds to a field $E$ such that $mathbb{Q} subseteq E subseteq K$ (more preciously $E=K^{H}$). Now $H$ being normal in $G$ we must have that $E$ is a normal extension of $mathbb{Q}$. (Because $bigcap_{gin G} gHg^{-1}$ corresponds to $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$ and $H$ being normal in $G$ we've $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$=E, which forces $E/mathbb{Q}$ is anormal extension). And as $K/mathbb{Q}$ is itself separable (as it is a Galois extension), $E/mathbb{Q}$ is also separable and hence Galois of degree $p$.
So now by Primitive Element theorem there exists $bin E$ such that $E=mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now if $b$ is root of $f(x)$ then since $E/mathbb{Q}$ is normal $E$ would become a splitting field of $f(x)$ forcing $m=1$. So WLOG $b$ is not a root of $f(x)$. Now pick a root of $f(x)$ $ain F$ to and consider $mathbb{Q}(a,b)/mathbb{Q}$.
Note that $[mathbb{Q}(b):mathbb{Q}]=p$ so now if we can show $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$ then we will get $p^2 mid [K:mathbb{Q}]$ which is a contradiction from first part. So, now we're just left to prove $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$
Suppose not, which means $f(x)$ is reducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now note that $f(x)$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}$ and $mathbb{char}(mathbb{Q})=0$so $f(x)$ is seperable, so it has no multiple roots in any extension of $mathbb{Q}$ and so, $f$ must split into linear factors over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$ (if not then its has a factor of form $g(x)^r$ with $r>1$ and $g$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$, but then any root of $g$ in some extension comes as a root of $f$ with multiplicity more than $1$, contradiction) and so $b$ is a root of $f$ which is a contradiction to our assumption that $b$ is not a root of $f$ and so we're done.
add a comment |
Answer to your second question: Since $H$ is normal in $G=Gal(K/mathbb{Q})$, $H$ corresponds to a field $E$ such that $mathbb{Q} subseteq E subseteq K$ (more preciously $E=K^{H}$). Now $H$ being normal in $G$ we must have that $E$ is a normal extension of $mathbb{Q}$. (Because $bigcap_{gin G} gHg^{-1}$ corresponds to $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$ and $H$ being normal in $G$ we've $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$=E, which forces $E/mathbb{Q}$ is anormal extension). And as $K/mathbb{Q}$ is itself separable (as it is a Galois extension), $E/mathbb{Q}$ is also separable and hence Galois of degree $p$.
So now by Primitive Element theorem there exists $bin E$ such that $E=mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now if $b$ is root of $f(x)$ then since $E/mathbb{Q}$ is normal $E$ would become a splitting field of $f(x)$ forcing $m=1$. So WLOG $b$ is not a root of $f(x)$. Now pick a root of $f(x)$ $ain F$ to and consider $mathbb{Q}(a,b)/mathbb{Q}$.
Note that $[mathbb{Q}(b):mathbb{Q}]=p$ so now if we can show $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$ then we will get $p^2 mid [K:mathbb{Q}]$ which is a contradiction from first part. So, now we're just left to prove $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$
Suppose not, which means $f(x)$ is reducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now note that $f(x)$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}$ and $mathbb{char}(mathbb{Q})=0$so $f(x)$ is seperable, so it has no multiple roots in any extension of $mathbb{Q}$ and so, $f$ must split into linear factors over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$ (if not then its has a factor of form $g(x)^r$ with $r>1$ and $g$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$, but then any root of $g$ in some extension comes as a root of $f$ with multiplicity more than $1$, contradiction) and so $b$ is a root of $f$ which is a contradiction to our assumption that $b$ is not a root of $f$ and so we're done.
add a comment |
Answer to your second question: Since $H$ is normal in $G=Gal(K/mathbb{Q})$, $H$ corresponds to a field $E$ such that $mathbb{Q} subseteq E subseteq K$ (more preciously $E=K^{H}$). Now $H$ being normal in $G$ we must have that $E$ is a normal extension of $mathbb{Q}$. (Because $bigcap_{gin G} gHg^{-1}$ corresponds to $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$ and $H$ being normal in $G$ we've $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$=E, which forces $E/mathbb{Q}$ is anormal extension). And as $K/mathbb{Q}$ is itself separable (as it is a Galois extension), $E/mathbb{Q}$ is also separable and hence Galois of degree $p$.
So now by Primitive Element theorem there exists $bin E$ such that $E=mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now if $b$ is root of $f(x)$ then since $E/mathbb{Q}$ is normal $E$ would become a splitting field of $f(x)$ forcing $m=1$. So WLOG $b$ is not a root of $f(x)$. Now pick a root of $f(x)$ $ain F$ to and consider $mathbb{Q}(a,b)/mathbb{Q}$.
Note that $[mathbb{Q}(b):mathbb{Q}]=p$ so now if we can show $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$ then we will get $p^2 mid [K:mathbb{Q}]$ which is a contradiction from first part. So, now we're just left to prove $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$
Suppose not, which means $f(x)$ is reducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now note that $f(x)$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}$ and $mathbb{char}(mathbb{Q})=0$so $f(x)$ is seperable, so it has no multiple roots in any extension of $mathbb{Q}$ and so, $f$ must split into linear factors over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$ (if not then its has a factor of form $g(x)^r$ with $r>1$ and $g$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$, but then any root of $g$ in some extension comes as a root of $f$ with multiplicity more than $1$, contradiction) and so $b$ is a root of $f$ which is a contradiction to our assumption that $b$ is not a root of $f$ and so we're done.
Answer to your second question: Since $H$ is normal in $G=Gal(K/mathbb{Q})$, $H$ corresponds to a field $E$ such that $mathbb{Q} subseteq E subseteq K$ (more preciously $E=K^{H}$). Now $H$ being normal in $G$ we must have that $E$ is a normal extension of $mathbb{Q}$. (Because $bigcap_{gin G} gHg^{-1}$ corresponds to $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$ and $H$ being normal in $G$ we've $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$=E, which forces $E/mathbb{Q}$ is anormal extension). And as $K/mathbb{Q}$ is itself separable (as it is a Galois extension), $E/mathbb{Q}$ is also separable and hence Galois of degree $p$.
So now by Primitive Element theorem there exists $bin E$ such that $E=mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now if $b$ is root of $f(x)$ then since $E/mathbb{Q}$ is normal $E$ would become a splitting field of $f(x)$ forcing $m=1$. So WLOG $b$ is not a root of $f(x)$. Now pick a root of $f(x)$ $ain F$ to and consider $mathbb{Q}(a,b)/mathbb{Q}$.
Note that $[mathbb{Q}(b):mathbb{Q}]=p$ so now if we can show $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$ then we will get $p^2 mid [K:mathbb{Q}]$ which is a contradiction from first part. So, now we're just left to prove $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$
Suppose not, which means $f(x)$ is reducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now note that $f(x)$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}$ and $mathbb{char}(mathbb{Q})=0$so $f(x)$ is seperable, so it has no multiple roots in any extension of $mathbb{Q}$ and so, $f$ must split into linear factors over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$ (if not then its has a factor of form $g(x)^r$ with $r>1$ and $g$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$, but then any root of $g$ in some extension comes as a root of $f$ with multiplicity more than $1$, contradiction) and so $b$ is a root of $f$ which is a contradiction to our assumption that $b$ is not a root of $f$ and so we're done.
edited Dec 4 '18 at 14:02
amWhy
192k28225439
192k28225439
answered Jun 22 '16 at 3:00
dragoboy
774517
774517
add a comment |
add a comment |
There is the simple counterexample of $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times2$ but its order 2 subgroups are not normal.
In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
– richarddedekind
Jun 16 '16 at 20:05
add a comment |
There is the simple counterexample of $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times2$ but its order 2 subgroups are not normal.
In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
– richarddedekind
Jun 16 '16 at 20:05
add a comment |
There is the simple counterexample of $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times2$ but its order 2 subgroups are not normal.
There is the simple counterexample of $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times2$ but its order 2 subgroups are not normal.
answered Jun 16 '16 at 13:18
Ken Duna
5,0292925
5,0292925
In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
– richarddedekind
Jun 16 '16 at 20:05
add a comment |
In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
– richarddedekind
Jun 16 '16 at 20:05
In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
– richarddedekind
Jun 16 '16 at 20:05
In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
– richarddedekind
Jun 16 '16 at 20:05
add a comment |
To answer to the question of the title. Consider the group $G=mathbb{Z}/6mathbb{Z}$, we have $mid G mid = 3times 2$ and $gcd(2,3)=1$. Since $G$ is abelian then $H=langle 2 rangle simeq mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is a non trivial normal subgroup of $G$.
1
This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 13:15
If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
– richarddedekind
Jun 17 '16 at 3:40
add a comment |
To answer to the question of the title. Consider the group $G=mathbb{Z}/6mathbb{Z}$, we have $mid G mid = 3times 2$ and $gcd(2,3)=1$. Since $G$ is abelian then $H=langle 2 rangle simeq mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is a non trivial normal subgroup of $G$.
1
This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 13:15
If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
– richarddedekind
Jun 17 '16 at 3:40
add a comment |
To answer to the question of the title. Consider the group $G=mathbb{Z}/6mathbb{Z}$, we have $mid G mid = 3times 2$ and $gcd(2,3)=1$. Since $G$ is abelian then $H=langle 2 rangle simeq mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is a non trivial normal subgroup of $G$.
To answer to the question of the title. Consider the group $G=mathbb{Z}/6mathbb{Z}$, we have $mid G mid = 3times 2$ and $gcd(2,3)=1$. Since $G$ is abelian then $H=langle 2 rangle simeq mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is a non trivial normal subgroup of $G$.
answered Jun 16 '16 at 3:08
Benoît Guerville-Ballé
394
394
1
This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 13:15
If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
– richarddedekind
Jun 17 '16 at 3:40
add a comment |
1
This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 13:15
If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
– richarddedekind
Jun 17 '16 at 3:40
1
1
This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 13:15
This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 13:15
If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
– richarddedekind
Jun 17 '16 at 3:40
If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
– richarddedekind
Jun 17 '16 at 3:40
add a comment |
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1
$K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 1:23