Is there a non trivial normal subgroup of a group $G$, where $|G|=pm, gcd(p,m)=1$?












3














In fact, the exercise I'm in is this:



Suppose you have an irreducible polynomial $f(x)in mathbb{Q}[x]$ of degree $p$, where $p$ is a prime. Also suppose that $K$ is a splitting field of $f(x)$ over $mathbb{Q}$.



Prove that:




  1. $[K:mathbb{Q}]=pm$, where $gcd(p,m)=1$

  2. If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $mathrm{Gal}(K,mathbb{Q})$ of order $|H|=m$ then $m=1$.


The first part was easy but the second part has something to do with Sylow theorems in which I'm not very keen on.










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  • 1




    $K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
    – Ken Duna
    Jun 16 '16 at 1:23
















3














In fact, the exercise I'm in is this:



Suppose you have an irreducible polynomial $f(x)in mathbb{Q}[x]$ of degree $p$, where $p$ is a prime. Also suppose that $K$ is a splitting field of $f(x)$ over $mathbb{Q}$.



Prove that:




  1. $[K:mathbb{Q}]=pm$, where $gcd(p,m)=1$

  2. If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $mathrm{Gal}(K,mathbb{Q})$ of order $|H|=m$ then $m=1$.


The first part was easy but the second part has something to do with Sylow theorems in which I'm not very keen on.










share|cite|improve this question




















  • 1




    $K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
    – Ken Duna
    Jun 16 '16 at 1:23














3












3








3







In fact, the exercise I'm in is this:



Suppose you have an irreducible polynomial $f(x)in mathbb{Q}[x]$ of degree $p$, where $p$ is a prime. Also suppose that $K$ is a splitting field of $f(x)$ over $mathbb{Q}$.



Prove that:




  1. $[K:mathbb{Q}]=pm$, where $gcd(p,m)=1$

  2. If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $mathrm{Gal}(K,mathbb{Q})$ of order $|H|=m$ then $m=1$.


The first part was easy but the second part has something to do with Sylow theorems in which I'm not very keen on.










share|cite|improve this question















In fact, the exercise I'm in is this:



Suppose you have an irreducible polynomial $f(x)in mathbb{Q}[x]$ of degree $p$, where $p$ is a prime. Also suppose that $K$ is a splitting field of $f(x)$ over $mathbb{Q}$.



Prove that:




  1. $[K:mathbb{Q}]=pm$, where $gcd(p,m)=1$

  2. If $H$ is a normal subgroup of $mathrm{Gal}(K,mathbb{Q})$ of order $|H|=m$ then $m=1$.


The first part was easy but the second part has something to do with Sylow theorems in which I'm not very keen on.







group-theory finite-groups galois-theory sylow-theory






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edited Jun 16 '16 at 1:28

























asked Jun 16 '16 at 0:20









richarddedekind

711316




711316








  • 1




    $K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
    – Ken Duna
    Jun 16 '16 at 1:23














  • 1




    $K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
    – Ken Duna
    Jun 16 '16 at 1:23








1




1




$K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 1:23




$K$ is called a $textit{splitting field}$ of $f(x)$.
– Ken Duna
Jun 16 '16 at 1:23










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

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1














Answer to your second question: Since $H$ is normal in $G=Gal(K/mathbb{Q})$, $H$ corresponds to a field $E$ such that $mathbb{Q} subseteq E subseteq K$ (more preciously $E=K^{H}$). Now $H$ being normal in $G$ we must have that $E$ is a normal extension of $mathbb{Q}$. (Because $bigcap_{gin G} gHg^{-1}$ corresponds to $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$ and $H$ being normal in $G$ we've $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$=E, which forces $E/mathbb{Q}$ is anormal extension). And as $K/mathbb{Q}$ is itself separable (as it is a Galois extension), $E/mathbb{Q}$ is also separable and hence Galois of degree $p$.



So now by Primitive Element theorem there exists $bin E$ such that $E=mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now if $b$ is root of $f(x)$ then since $E/mathbb{Q}$ is normal $E$ would become a splitting field of $f(x)$ forcing $m=1$. So WLOG $b$ is not a root of $f(x)$. Now pick a root of $f(x)$ $ain F$ to and consider $mathbb{Q}(a,b)/mathbb{Q}$.



Note that $[mathbb{Q}(b):mathbb{Q}]=p$ so now if we can show $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$ then we will get $p^2 mid [K:mathbb{Q}]$ which is a contradiction from first part. So, now we're just left to prove $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$



Suppose not, which means $f(x)$ is reducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now note that $f(x)$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}$ and $mathbb{char}(mathbb{Q})=0$so $f(x)$ is seperable, so it has no multiple roots in any extension of $mathbb{Q}$ and so, $f$ must split into linear factors over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$ (if not then its has a factor of form $g(x)^r$ with $r>1$ and $g$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$, but then any root of $g$ in some extension comes as a root of $f$ with multiplicity more than $1$, contradiction) and so $b$ is a root of $f$ which is a contradiction to our assumption that $b$ is not a root of $f$ and so we're done.






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    0














    There is the simple counterexample of $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times2$ but its order 2 subgroups are not normal.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















    • In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
      – richarddedekind
      Jun 16 '16 at 20:05



















    -1














    To answer to the question of the title. Consider the group $G=mathbb{Z}/6mathbb{Z}$, we have $mid G mid = 3times 2$ and $gcd(2,3)=1$. Since $G$ is abelian then $H=langle 2 rangle simeq mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is a non trivial normal subgroup of $G$.






    share|cite|improve this answer

















    • 1




      This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
      – Ken Duna
      Jun 16 '16 at 13:15










    • If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
      – richarddedekind
      Jun 17 '16 at 3:40













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    1














    Answer to your second question: Since $H$ is normal in $G=Gal(K/mathbb{Q})$, $H$ corresponds to a field $E$ such that $mathbb{Q} subseteq E subseteq K$ (more preciously $E=K^{H}$). Now $H$ being normal in $G$ we must have that $E$ is a normal extension of $mathbb{Q}$. (Because $bigcap_{gin G} gHg^{-1}$ corresponds to $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$ and $H$ being normal in $G$ we've $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$=E, which forces $E/mathbb{Q}$ is anormal extension). And as $K/mathbb{Q}$ is itself separable (as it is a Galois extension), $E/mathbb{Q}$ is also separable and hence Galois of degree $p$.



    So now by Primitive Element theorem there exists $bin E$ such that $E=mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now if $b$ is root of $f(x)$ then since $E/mathbb{Q}$ is normal $E$ would become a splitting field of $f(x)$ forcing $m=1$. So WLOG $b$ is not a root of $f(x)$. Now pick a root of $f(x)$ $ain F$ to and consider $mathbb{Q}(a,b)/mathbb{Q}$.



    Note that $[mathbb{Q}(b):mathbb{Q}]=p$ so now if we can show $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$ then we will get $p^2 mid [K:mathbb{Q}]$ which is a contradiction from first part. So, now we're just left to prove $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$



    Suppose not, which means $f(x)$ is reducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now note that $f(x)$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}$ and $mathbb{char}(mathbb{Q})=0$so $f(x)$ is seperable, so it has no multiple roots in any extension of $mathbb{Q}$ and so, $f$ must split into linear factors over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$ (if not then its has a factor of form $g(x)^r$ with $r>1$ and $g$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$, but then any root of $g$ in some extension comes as a root of $f$ with multiplicity more than $1$, contradiction) and so $b$ is a root of $f$ which is a contradiction to our assumption that $b$ is not a root of $f$ and so we're done.






    share|cite|improve this answer




























      1














      Answer to your second question: Since $H$ is normal in $G=Gal(K/mathbb{Q})$, $H$ corresponds to a field $E$ such that $mathbb{Q} subseteq E subseteq K$ (more preciously $E=K^{H}$). Now $H$ being normal in $G$ we must have that $E$ is a normal extension of $mathbb{Q}$. (Because $bigcap_{gin G} gHg^{-1}$ corresponds to $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$ and $H$ being normal in $G$ we've $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$=E, which forces $E/mathbb{Q}$ is anormal extension). And as $K/mathbb{Q}$ is itself separable (as it is a Galois extension), $E/mathbb{Q}$ is also separable and hence Galois of degree $p$.



      So now by Primitive Element theorem there exists $bin E$ such that $E=mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now if $b$ is root of $f(x)$ then since $E/mathbb{Q}$ is normal $E$ would become a splitting field of $f(x)$ forcing $m=1$. So WLOG $b$ is not a root of $f(x)$. Now pick a root of $f(x)$ $ain F$ to and consider $mathbb{Q}(a,b)/mathbb{Q}$.



      Note that $[mathbb{Q}(b):mathbb{Q}]=p$ so now if we can show $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$ then we will get $p^2 mid [K:mathbb{Q}]$ which is a contradiction from first part. So, now we're just left to prove $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$



      Suppose not, which means $f(x)$ is reducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now note that $f(x)$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}$ and $mathbb{char}(mathbb{Q})=0$so $f(x)$ is seperable, so it has no multiple roots in any extension of $mathbb{Q}$ and so, $f$ must split into linear factors over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$ (if not then its has a factor of form $g(x)^r$ with $r>1$ and $g$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$, but then any root of $g$ in some extension comes as a root of $f$ with multiplicity more than $1$, contradiction) and so $b$ is a root of $f$ which is a contradiction to our assumption that $b$ is not a root of $f$ and so we're done.






      share|cite|improve this answer


























        1












        1








        1






        Answer to your second question: Since $H$ is normal in $G=Gal(K/mathbb{Q})$, $H$ corresponds to a field $E$ such that $mathbb{Q} subseteq E subseteq K$ (more preciously $E=K^{H}$). Now $H$ being normal in $G$ we must have that $E$ is a normal extension of $mathbb{Q}$. (Because $bigcap_{gin G} gHg^{-1}$ corresponds to $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$ and $H$ being normal in $G$ we've $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$=E, which forces $E/mathbb{Q}$ is anormal extension). And as $K/mathbb{Q}$ is itself separable (as it is a Galois extension), $E/mathbb{Q}$ is also separable and hence Galois of degree $p$.



        So now by Primitive Element theorem there exists $bin E$ such that $E=mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now if $b$ is root of $f(x)$ then since $E/mathbb{Q}$ is normal $E$ would become a splitting field of $f(x)$ forcing $m=1$. So WLOG $b$ is not a root of $f(x)$. Now pick a root of $f(x)$ $ain F$ to and consider $mathbb{Q}(a,b)/mathbb{Q}$.



        Note that $[mathbb{Q}(b):mathbb{Q}]=p$ so now if we can show $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$ then we will get $p^2 mid [K:mathbb{Q}]$ which is a contradiction from first part. So, now we're just left to prove $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$



        Suppose not, which means $f(x)$ is reducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now note that $f(x)$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}$ and $mathbb{char}(mathbb{Q})=0$so $f(x)$ is seperable, so it has no multiple roots in any extension of $mathbb{Q}$ and so, $f$ must split into linear factors over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$ (if not then its has a factor of form $g(x)^r$ with $r>1$ and $g$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$, but then any root of $g$ in some extension comes as a root of $f$ with multiplicity more than $1$, contradiction) and so $b$ is a root of $f$ which is a contradiction to our assumption that $b$ is not a root of $f$ and so we're done.






        share|cite|improve this answer














        Answer to your second question: Since $H$ is normal in $G=Gal(K/mathbb{Q})$, $H$ corresponds to a field $E$ such that $mathbb{Q} subseteq E subseteq K$ (more preciously $E=K^{H}$). Now $H$ being normal in $G$ we must have that $E$ is a normal extension of $mathbb{Q}$. (Because $bigcap_{gin G} gHg^{-1}$ corresponds to $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$ and $H$ being normal in $G$ we've $prod_{sigma in G}sigma(E)$=E, which forces $E/mathbb{Q}$ is anormal extension). And as $K/mathbb{Q}$ is itself separable (as it is a Galois extension), $E/mathbb{Q}$ is also separable and hence Galois of degree $p$.



        So now by Primitive Element theorem there exists $bin E$ such that $E=mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now if $b$ is root of $f(x)$ then since $E/mathbb{Q}$ is normal $E$ would become a splitting field of $f(x)$ forcing $m=1$. So WLOG $b$ is not a root of $f(x)$. Now pick a root of $f(x)$ $ain F$ to and consider $mathbb{Q}(a,b)/mathbb{Q}$.



        Note that $[mathbb{Q}(b):mathbb{Q}]=p$ so now if we can show $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$ then we will get $p^2 mid [K:mathbb{Q}]$ which is a contradiction from first part. So, now we're just left to prove $[mathbb{Q}(a,b):mathbb{Q(b)}]=p$



        Suppose not, which means $f(x)$ is reducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)$. Now note that $f(x)$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}$ and $mathbb{char}(mathbb{Q})=0$so $f(x)$ is seperable, so it has no multiple roots in any extension of $mathbb{Q}$ and so, $f$ must split into linear factors over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$ (if not then its has a factor of form $g(x)^r$ with $r>1$ and $g$ is irreducible over $mathbb{Q}(b)[x]$, but then any root of $g$ in some extension comes as a root of $f$ with multiplicity more than $1$, contradiction) and so $b$ is a root of $f$ which is a contradiction to our assumption that $b$ is not a root of $f$ and so we're done.







        share|cite|improve this answer














        share|cite|improve this answer



        share|cite|improve this answer








        edited Dec 4 '18 at 14:02









        amWhy

        192k28225439




        192k28225439










        answered Jun 22 '16 at 3:00









        dragoboy

        774517




        774517























            0














            There is the simple counterexample of $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times2$ but its order 2 subgroups are not normal.






            share|cite|improve this answer





















            • In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
              – richarddedekind
              Jun 16 '16 at 20:05
















            0














            There is the simple counterexample of $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times2$ but its order 2 subgroups are not normal.






            share|cite|improve this answer





















            • In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
              – richarddedekind
              Jun 16 '16 at 20:05














            0












            0








            0






            There is the simple counterexample of $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times2$ but its order 2 subgroups are not normal.






            share|cite|improve this answer












            There is the simple counterexample of $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times2$ but its order 2 subgroups are not normal.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Jun 16 '16 at 13:18









            Ken Duna

            5,0292925




            5,0292925












            • In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
              – richarddedekind
              Jun 16 '16 at 20:05


















            • In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
              – richarddedekind
              Jun 16 '16 at 20:05
















            In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
            – richarddedekind
            Jun 16 '16 at 20:05




            In fact, this is exactly what I' m trying to prove, so that' s makes it an example instead of a counter one.
            – richarddedekind
            Jun 16 '16 at 20:05











            -1














            To answer to the question of the title. Consider the group $G=mathbb{Z}/6mathbb{Z}$, we have $mid G mid = 3times 2$ and $gcd(2,3)=1$. Since $G$ is abelian then $H=langle 2 rangle simeq mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is a non trivial normal subgroup of $G$.






            share|cite|improve this answer

















            • 1




              This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
              – Ken Duna
              Jun 16 '16 at 13:15










            • If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
              – richarddedekind
              Jun 17 '16 at 3:40


















            -1














            To answer to the question of the title. Consider the group $G=mathbb{Z}/6mathbb{Z}$, we have $mid G mid = 3times 2$ and $gcd(2,3)=1$. Since $G$ is abelian then $H=langle 2 rangle simeq mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is a non trivial normal subgroup of $G$.






            share|cite|improve this answer

















            • 1




              This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
              – Ken Duna
              Jun 16 '16 at 13:15










            • If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
              – richarddedekind
              Jun 17 '16 at 3:40
















            -1












            -1








            -1






            To answer to the question of the title. Consider the group $G=mathbb{Z}/6mathbb{Z}$, we have $mid G mid = 3times 2$ and $gcd(2,3)=1$. Since $G$ is abelian then $H=langle 2 rangle simeq mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is a non trivial normal subgroup of $G$.






            share|cite|improve this answer












            To answer to the question of the title. Consider the group $G=mathbb{Z}/6mathbb{Z}$, we have $mid G mid = 3times 2$ and $gcd(2,3)=1$. Since $G$ is abelian then $H=langle 2 rangle simeq mathbb{Z}/3mathbb{Z}$ is a non trivial normal subgroup of $G$.







            share|cite|improve this answer












            share|cite|improve this answer



            share|cite|improve this answer










            answered Jun 16 '16 at 3:08









            Benoît Guerville-Ballé

            394




            394








            • 1




              This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
              – Ken Duna
              Jun 16 '16 at 13:15










            • If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
              – richarddedekind
              Jun 17 '16 at 3:40
















            • 1




              This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
              – Ken Duna
              Jun 16 '16 at 13:15










            • If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
              – richarddedekind
              Jun 17 '16 at 3:40










            1




            1




            This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
            – Ken Duna
            Jun 16 '16 at 13:15




            This does not answer the question. In fact the statement is not true in general. Consider $S_3$. Its order is $6=3times 2$. But each subgroup of order 2 is not normal.
            – Ken Duna
            Jun 16 '16 at 13:15












            If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
            – richarddedekind
            Jun 17 '16 at 3:40






            If $G$ is a Galois group of order 6 isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$ you are right and it is a valid counterexample. But, if there are no splitting fields with Galois group isomorphic to $mathbb{Z}_6$? In fact, I tried to find one but I always end up into the symmetric group $S_3$.
            – richarddedekind
            Jun 17 '16 at 3:40




















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