Given a field extension $Ksubset M$ with algebraic elements in x,y: Show that g(x,y)=0 for any g











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Given a field-extension $Ksubset M$. Let $x,y in $ M be algebraic,
$ fin K[X,Y]$ and $z=f(x,y) in M$. Show that $z$ is algebraic.



So far I got this obvious step:



Since $x$ and $y$ are algebraic so we can find a $gin K[X,Y]$ with $g(x,y)=0$



I can't see a connection, can someone give me a hint?
I tried seeing it with a example, but i can't generalize it.










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    Given a field-extension $Ksubset M$. Let $x,y in $ M be algebraic,
    $ fin K[X,Y]$ and $z=f(x,y) in M$. Show that $z$ is algebraic.



    So far I got this obvious step:



    Since $x$ and $y$ are algebraic so we can find a $gin K[X,Y]$ with $g(x,y)=0$



    I can't see a connection, can someone give me a hint?
    I tried seeing it with a example, but i can't generalize it.










    share|cite|improve this question









    New contributor




    dougle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
    Check out our Code of Conduct.






















      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite









      up vote
      2
      down vote

      favorite











      Given a field-extension $Ksubset M$. Let $x,y in $ M be algebraic,
      $ fin K[X,Y]$ and $z=f(x,y) in M$. Show that $z$ is algebraic.



      So far I got this obvious step:



      Since $x$ and $y$ are algebraic so we can find a $gin K[X,Y]$ with $g(x,y)=0$



      I can't see a connection, can someone give me a hint?
      I tried seeing it with a example, but i can't generalize it.










      share|cite|improve this question









      New contributor




      dougle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
      Check out our Code of Conduct.











      Given a field-extension $Ksubset M$. Let $x,y in $ M be algebraic,
      $ fin K[X,Y]$ and $z=f(x,y) in M$. Show that $z$ is algebraic.



      So far I got this obvious step:



      Since $x$ and $y$ are algebraic so we can find a $gin K[X,Y]$ with $g(x,y)=0$



      I can't see a connection, can someone give me a hint?
      I tried seeing it with a example, but i can't generalize it.







      abstract-algebra extension-field






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      dougle is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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      edited 6 hours ago









      dantopa

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      Check out our Code of Conduct.






















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          Take a moment to think, what are you doing when you evaluate $f$ on $x$ and $y$? You're just adding and multiplying them together, right? So this just boils down to showing that the algebraic elements of a field extension are a subfield of the extension (in fact, you just need to show they are a subring for the purposes of this question).



          Edit: My previous proof was really hasty and totally mistaken, but the fact that the algebraic elements of an extension are a subfield follows from basic facts about field extensions. Let me sketch an argument for you here.



          Edit #2: I wasn't totally happy with the second attempt either. Here I give a more fleshed out proof.



          Suppose $alpha$ and $beta$ are algebraic. Recall that $K(alpha) cong K[X]/langle min_alpha(x) rangle$, where $min_alpha(x)$ is the minimum polynomial of the element $alpha$ and $K(alpha)$ is the smallest subfield of $M$ that contains $alpha$. Now we have that $K(alpha)$ is a vector space over $K$ of dimension equal to the degree of $alpha$, and in particular it is spanned by the elements $1, alpha, alpha^2,ldots alpha^{n-1}$ where $n$ is the degree of $alpha$. What this means is that $alpha^{-1}$ is a polynomial expression in terms of $alpha$, and so if the algebraic numbers are closed under multplication and addition, they are closed under inversion (of nonzero numbers) as well. Since $alpha$ and $beta$ are algebraic, it follows that $[K(alpha,beta):K] = [K(alpha,beta):K(alpha)][K(alpha):K]$ is finite (do you see why each factor is finite, in particular the first one?), and so $K(alpha,beta)$ is algebraic. Therefore $alpha + beta$ and $alphabeta$ are algebraic over $K$, and we are done. For additional proofs of this fact you can look at this thread, from which I adapted the proof presented here.






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 1




            that was pretty obvious, thank you very much! i already thought about what it means to evaluate f on x and y but i did not saw the connection to a subfield, mainly because the elements are in K but K is only a subfield so it is fine
            – dougle
            6 hours ago












          • I find it difficult to see that $p(x) = q(y) = 0$ implies $x + y$ is a zero of $p + q$, i.e. that $p(x + y) + q(x + y) = 0$, and similar for $xy$: why should $p(xy)q(xy) = 0$? How do these things work? Cheers!
            – Robert Lewis
            5 hours ago








          • 1




            @RobertLewis In fact you are right; I was way too hasty in writing out this proof. I'll update it accordingly.
            – Monstrous Moonshiner
            5 hours ago










          • @MonstrousMoonshiner: I look forward to seeing your latest work!
            – Robert Lewis
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            Btw, if this answer was helpful, in addition to accepting it, might you also consider giving it an upvote? That's how we indicate that content is useful around here :)
            – Monstrous Moonshiner
            5 hours ago











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          Take a moment to think, what are you doing when you evaluate $f$ on $x$ and $y$? You're just adding and multiplying them together, right? So this just boils down to showing that the algebraic elements of a field extension are a subfield of the extension (in fact, you just need to show they are a subring for the purposes of this question).



          Edit: My previous proof was really hasty and totally mistaken, but the fact that the algebraic elements of an extension are a subfield follows from basic facts about field extensions. Let me sketch an argument for you here.



          Edit #2: I wasn't totally happy with the second attempt either. Here I give a more fleshed out proof.



          Suppose $alpha$ and $beta$ are algebraic. Recall that $K(alpha) cong K[X]/langle min_alpha(x) rangle$, where $min_alpha(x)$ is the minimum polynomial of the element $alpha$ and $K(alpha)$ is the smallest subfield of $M$ that contains $alpha$. Now we have that $K(alpha)$ is a vector space over $K$ of dimension equal to the degree of $alpha$, and in particular it is spanned by the elements $1, alpha, alpha^2,ldots alpha^{n-1}$ where $n$ is the degree of $alpha$. What this means is that $alpha^{-1}$ is a polynomial expression in terms of $alpha$, and so if the algebraic numbers are closed under multplication and addition, they are closed under inversion (of nonzero numbers) as well. Since $alpha$ and $beta$ are algebraic, it follows that $[K(alpha,beta):K] = [K(alpha,beta):K(alpha)][K(alpha):K]$ is finite (do you see why each factor is finite, in particular the first one?), and so $K(alpha,beta)$ is algebraic. Therefore $alpha + beta$ and $alphabeta$ are algebraic over $K$, and we are done. For additional proofs of this fact you can look at this thread, from which I adapted the proof presented here.






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 1




            that was pretty obvious, thank you very much! i already thought about what it means to evaluate f on x and y but i did not saw the connection to a subfield, mainly because the elements are in K but K is only a subfield so it is fine
            – dougle
            6 hours ago












          • I find it difficult to see that $p(x) = q(y) = 0$ implies $x + y$ is a zero of $p + q$, i.e. that $p(x + y) + q(x + y) = 0$, and similar for $xy$: why should $p(xy)q(xy) = 0$? How do these things work? Cheers!
            – Robert Lewis
            5 hours ago








          • 1




            @RobertLewis In fact you are right; I was way too hasty in writing out this proof. I'll update it accordingly.
            – Monstrous Moonshiner
            5 hours ago










          • @MonstrousMoonshiner: I look forward to seeing your latest work!
            – Robert Lewis
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            Btw, if this answer was helpful, in addition to accepting it, might you also consider giving it an upvote? That's how we indicate that content is useful around here :)
            – Monstrous Moonshiner
            5 hours ago















          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted










          Take a moment to think, what are you doing when you evaluate $f$ on $x$ and $y$? You're just adding and multiplying them together, right? So this just boils down to showing that the algebraic elements of a field extension are a subfield of the extension (in fact, you just need to show they are a subring for the purposes of this question).



          Edit: My previous proof was really hasty and totally mistaken, but the fact that the algebraic elements of an extension are a subfield follows from basic facts about field extensions. Let me sketch an argument for you here.



          Edit #2: I wasn't totally happy with the second attempt either. Here I give a more fleshed out proof.



          Suppose $alpha$ and $beta$ are algebraic. Recall that $K(alpha) cong K[X]/langle min_alpha(x) rangle$, where $min_alpha(x)$ is the minimum polynomial of the element $alpha$ and $K(alpha)$ is the smallest subfield of $M$ that contains $alpha$. Now we have that $K(alpha)$ is a vector space over $K$ of dimension equal to the degree of $alpha$, and in particular it is spanned by the elements $1, alpha, alpha^2,ldots alpha^{n-1}$ where $n$ is the degree of $alpha$. What this means is that $alpha^{-1}$ is a polynomial expression in terms of $alpha$, and so if the algebraic numbers are closed under multplication and addition, they are closed under inversion (of nonzero numbers) as well. Since $alpha$ and $beta$ are algebraic, it follows that $[K(alpha,beta):K] = [K(alpha,beta):K(alpha)][K(alpha):K]$ is finite (do you see why each factor is finite, in particular the first one?), and so $K(alpha,beta)$ is algebraic. Therefore $alpha + beta$ and $alphabeta$ are algebraic over $K$, and we are done. For additional proofs of this fact you can look at this thread, from which I adapted the proof presented here.






          share|cite|improve this answer



















          • 1




            that was pretty obvious, thank you very much! i already thought about what it means to evaluate f on x and y but i did not saw the connection to a subfield, mainly because the elements are in K but K is only a subfield so it is fine
            – dougle
            6 hours ago












          • I find it difficult to see that $p(x) = q(y) = 0$ implies $x + y$ is a zero of $p + q$, i.e. that $p(x + y) + q(x + y) = 0$, and similar for $xy$: why should $p(xy)q(xy) = 0$? How do these things work? Cheers!
            – Robert Lewis
            5 hours ago








          • 1




            @RobertLewis In fact you are right; I was way too hasty in writing out this proof. I'll update it accordingly.
            – Monstrous Moonshiner
            5 hours ago










          • @MonstrousMoonshiner: I look forward to seeing your latest work!
            – Robert Lewis
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            Btw, if this answer was helpful, in addition to accepting it, might you also consider giving it an upvote? That's how we indicate that content is useful around here :)
            – Monstrous Moonshiner
            5 hours ago













          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted







          up vote
          1
          down vote



          accepted






          Take a moment to think, what are you doing when you evaluate $f$ on $x$ and $y$? You're just adding and multiplying them together, right? So this just boils down to showing that the algebraic elements of a field extension are a subfield of the extension (in fact, you just need to show they are a subring for the purposes of this question).



          Edit: My previous proof was really hasty and totally mistaken, but the fact that the algebraic elements of an extension are a subfield follows from basic facts about field extensions. Let me sketch an argument for you here.



          Edit #2: I wasn't totally happy with the second attempt either. Here I give a more fleshed out proof.



          Suppose $alpha$ and $beta$ are algebraic. Recall that $K(alpha) cong K[X]/langle min_alpha(x) rangle$, where $min_alpha(x)$ is the minimum polynomial of the element $alpha$ and $K(alpha)$ is the smallest subfield of $M$ that contains $alpha$. Now we have that $K(alpha)$ is a vector space over $K$ of dimension equal to the degree of $alpha$, and in particular it is spanned by the elements $1, alpha, alpha^2,ldots alpha^{n-1}$ where $n$ is the degree of $alpha$. What this means is that $alpha^{-1}$ is a polynomial expression in terms of $alpha$, and so if the algebraic numbers are closed under multplication and addition, they are closed under inversion (of nonzero numbers) as well. Since $alpha$ and $beta$ are algebraic, it follows that $[K(alpha,beta):K] = [K(alpha,beta):K(alpha)][K(alpha):K]$ is finite (do you see why each factor is finite, in particular the first one?), and so $K(alpha,beta)$ is algebraic. Therefore $alpha + beta$ and $alphabeta$ are algebraic over $K$, and we are done. For additional proofs of this fact you can look at this thread, from which I adapted the proof presented here.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          Take a moment to think, what are you doing when you evaluate $f$ on $x$ and $y$? You're just adding and multiplying them together, right? So this just boils down to showing that the algebraic elements of a field extension are a subfield of the extension (in fact, you just need to show they are a subring for the purposes of this question).



          Edit: My previous proof was really hasty and totally mistaken, but the fact that the algebraic elements of an extension are a subfield follows from basic facts about field extensions. Let me sketch an argument for you here.



          Edit #2: I wasn't totally happy with the second attempt either. Here I give a more fleshed out proof.



          Suppose $alpha$ and $beta$ are algebraic. Recall that $K(alpha) cong K[X]/langle min_alpha(x) rangle$, where $min_alpha(x)$ is the minimum polynomial of the element $alpha$ and $K(alpha)$ is the smallest subfield of $M$ that contains $alpha$. Now we have that $K(alpha)$ is a vector space over $K$ of dimension equal to the degree of $alpha$, and in particular it is spanned by the elements $1, alpha, alpha^2,ldots alpha^{n-1}$ where $n$ is the degree of $alpha$. What this means is that $alpha^{-1}$ is a polynomial expression in terms of $alpha$, and so if the algebraic numbers are closed under multplication and addition, they are closed under inversion (of nonzero numbers) as well. Since $alpha$ and $beta$ are algebraic, it follows that $[K(alpha,beta):K] = [K(alpha,beta):K(alpha)][K(alpha):K]$ is finite (do you see why each factor is finite, in particular the first one?), and so $K(alpha,beta)$ is algebraic. Therefore $alpha + beta$ and $alphabeta$ are algebraic over $K$, and we are done. For additional proofs of this fact you can look at this thread, from which I adapted the proof presented here.







          share|cite|improve this answer














          share|cite|improve this answer



          share|cite|improve this answer








          edited 1 hour ago

























          answered 6 hours ago









          Monstrous Moonshiner

          1,86011334




          1,86011334








          • 1




            that was pretty obvious, thank you very much! i already thought about what it means to evaluate f on x and y but i did not saw the connection to a subfield, mainly because the elements are in K but K is only a subfield so it is fine
            – dougle
            6 hours ago












          • I find it difficult to see that $p(x) = q(y) = 0$ implies $x + y$ is a zero of $p + q$, i.e. that $p(x + y) + q(x + y) = 0$, and similar for $xy$: why should $p(xy)q(xy) = 0$? How do these things work? Cheers!
            – Robert Lewis
            5 hours ago








          • 1




            @RobertLewis In fact you are right; I was way too hasty in writing out this proof. I'll update it accordingly.
            – Monstrous Moonshiner
            5 hours ago










          • @MonstrousMoonshiner: I look forward to seeing your latest work!
            – Robert Lewis
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            Btw, if this answer was helpful, in addition to accepting it, might you also consider giving it an upvote? That's how we indicate that content is useful around here :)
            – Monstrous Moonshiner
            5 hours ago














          • 1




            that was pretty obvious, thank you very much! i already thought about what it means to evaluate f on x and y but i did not saw the connection to a subfield, mainly because the elements are in K but K is only a subfield so it is fine
            – dougle
            6 hours ago












          • I find it difficult to see that $p(x) = q(y) = 0$ implies $x + y$ is a zero of $p + q$, i.e. that $p(x + y) + q(x + y) = 0$, and similar for $xy$: why should $p(xy)q(xy) = 0$? How do these things work? Cheers!
            – Robert Lewis
            5 hours ago








          • 1




            @RobertLewis In fact you are right; I was way too hasty in writing out this proof. I'll update it accordingly.
            – Monstrous Moonshiner
            5 hours ago










          • @MonstrousMoonshiner: I look forward to seeing your latest work!
            – Robert Lewis
            5 hours ago






          • 1




            Btw, if this answer was helpful, in addition to accepting it, might you also consider giving it an upvote? That's how we indicate that content is useful around here :)
            – Monstrous Moonshiner
            5 hours ago








          1




          1




          that was pretty obvious, thank you very much! i already thought about what it means to evaluate f on x and y but i did not saw the connection to a subfield, mainly because the elements are in K but K is only a subfield so it is fine
          – dougle
          6 hours ago






          that was pretty obvious, thank you very much! i already thought about what it means to evaluate f on x and y but i did not saw the connection to a subfield, mainly because the elements are in K but K is only a subfield so it is fine
          – dougle
          6 hours ago














          I find it difficult to see that $p(x) = q(y) = 0$ implies $x + y$ is a zero of $p + q$, i.e. that $p(x + y) + q(x + y) = 0$, and similar for $xy$: why should $p(xy)q(xy) = 0$? How do these things work? Cheers!
          – Robert Lewis
          5 hours ago






          I find it difficult to see that $p(x) = q(y) = 0$ implies $x + y$ is a zero of $p + q$, i.e. that $p(x + y) + q(x + y) = 0$, and similar for $xy$: why should $p(xy)q(xy) = 0$? How do these things work? Cheers!
          – Robert Lewis
          5 hours ago






          1




          1




          @RobertLewis In fact you are right; I was way too hasty in writing out this proof. I'll update it accordingly.
          – Monstrous Moonshiner
          5 hours ago




          @RobertLewis In fact you are right; I was way too hasty in writing out this proof. I'll update it accordingly.
          – Monstrous Moonshiner
          5 hours ago












          @MonstrousMoonshiner: I look forward to seeing your latest work!
          – Robert Lewis
          5 hours ago




          @MonstrousMoonshiner: I look forward to seeing your latest work!
          – Robert Lewis
          5 hours ago




          1




          1




          Btw, if this answer was helpful, in addition to accepting it, might you also consider giving it an upvote? That's how we indicate that content is useful around here :)
          – Monstrous Moonshiner
          5 hours ago




          Btw, if this answer was helpful, in addition to accepting it, might you also consider giving it an upvote? That's how we indicate that content is useful around here :)
          – Monstrous Moonshiner
          5 hours ago










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