How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?
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How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?
Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.
I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.
group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups
|
show 6 more comments
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?
Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.
I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.
group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups
Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
11 hours ago
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
11 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
up vote
1
down vote
favorite
How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?
Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.
I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.
group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups
How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?
Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.
I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.
group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups
group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups
edited 11 hours ago
Zvi
3,215222
3,215222
asked 11 hours ago
So Lo
60318
60318
Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
11 hours ago
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
11 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
11 hours ago
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
11 hours ago
Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
11 hours ago
Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
11 hours ago
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
11 hours ago
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
11 hours ago
|
show 6 more comments
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
11 hours ago
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
11 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.
If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are
$n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;
$n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.
So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.
If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.
If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$
If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
11 hours ago
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
11 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
11 hours ago
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
11 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
up vote
3
down vote
accepted
Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?
Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?
answered 11 hours ago
Travis
58.7k765142
58.7k765142
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
11 hours ago
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
11 hours ago
add a comment |
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
11 hours ago
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
11 hours ago
2
2
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
11 hours ago
Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
– So Lo
11 hours ago
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
11 hours ago
Yes!$!!!!!$
– Travis
11 hours ago
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.
If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are
$n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;
$n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.
So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.
If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.
If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$
If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.
If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are
$n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;
$n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.
So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.
If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.
If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$
If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.
add a comment |
up vote
2
down vote
up vote
2
down vote
Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.
If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are
$n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;
$n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.
So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.
If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.
If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$
If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.
Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.
If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are
$n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;
$n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.
So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.
If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.
If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$
If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.
edited 7 hours ago
answered 11 hours ago
Zvi
3,215222
3,215222
add a comment |
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.
add a comment |
up vote
0
down vote
up vote
0
down vote
HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.
HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.
answered 11 hours ago
Josué Tonelli-Cueto
3,6521027
3,6521027
add a comment |
add a comment |
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Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
11 hours ago
@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
11 hours ago
I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
11 hours ago