How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?











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How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?



Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.



I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.










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  • Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
    – Arthur
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
    – Darth Geek
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
    – Mark Bennet
    11 hours ago










  • I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
    – Zvi
    11 hours ago

















up vote
1
down vote

favorite
1












How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?



Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.



I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.










share|cite|improve this question
























  • Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
    – Arthur
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
    – Darth Geek
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
    – Mark Bennet
    11 hours ago










  • I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
    – Zvi
    11 hours ago















up vote
1
down vote

favorite
1









up vote
1
down vote

favorite
1






1





How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?



Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.



I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.










share|cite|improve this question















How to show $D_3oplus D_4$ is not isomorphic to $D_{24}$?



Here $D_n$ is the dihedral group of order $2n$.



I am not sure how to prove this. I am not very good with the dihedreal groups.







group-theory group-isomorphism dihedral-groups






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share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited 11 hours ago









Zvi

3,215222




3,215222










asked 11 hours ago









So Lo

60318




60318












  • Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
    – Arthur
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
    – Darth Geek
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
    – Mark Bennet
    11 hours ago










  • I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
    – Zvi
    11 hours ago




















  • Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
    – Rushabh Mehta
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
    – Arthur
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
    – Darth Geek
    11 hours ago










  • @RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
    – Mark Bennet
    11 hours ago










  • I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
    – Zvi
    11 hours ago


















Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
11 hours ago




Look at the orders of each group. They are not equal.
– Rushabh Mehta
11 hours ago












@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
11 hours ago




@RushabhMehta They both have order $48$.
– Arthur
11 hours ago












@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
11 hours ago




@RushabhMehta OP uses $Dn$ to refer to the dihedral group of order $2n$. In both cases the order is $48$.
– Darth Geek
11 hours ago












@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
11 hours ago




@RushabhMehta I think there is ambiguity about notation for dihedral groups, and the orders here are $6times 8=48$
– Mark Bennet
11 hours ago












I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
11 hours ago






I never saw anybody use $oplus$ for direct product of groups, btw (assuming that $oplus$ does mean direct product here). Who uses this notation?
– Zvi
11 hours ago












3 Answers
3






active

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up vote
3
down vote



accepted










Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?






share|cite|improve this answer

















  • 2




    Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
    – So Lo
    11 hours ago












  • Yes!$!!!!!$
    – Travis
    11 hours ago


















up vote
2
down vote













Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.



If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are




  • $n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;


  • $n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.



So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.



If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.



If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
$$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
and
$$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$



If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.






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    up vote
    0
    down vote













    HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.






    share|cite|improve this answer





















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      3 Answers
      3






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      3 Answers
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      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted










      Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?






      share|cite|improve this answer

















      • 2




        Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
        – So Lo
        11 hours ago












      • Yes!$!!!!!$
        – Travis
        11 hours ago















      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted










      Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?






      share|cite|improve this answer

















      • 2




        Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
        – So Lo
        11 hours ago












      • Yes!$!!!!!$
        – Travis
        11 hours ago













      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted







      up vote
      3
      down vote



      accepted






      Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?






      share|cite|improve this answer












      Hint The group $D_{24}$ (usually denoted $D_{48}$) has an element of order $24$. Does $D_3 times D_4$?







      share|cite|improve this answer












      share|cite|improve this answer



      share|cite|improve this answer










      answered 11 hours ago









      Travis

      58.7k765142




      58.7k765142








      • 2




        Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
        – So Lo
        11 hours ago












      • Yes!$!!!!!$
        – Travis
        11 hours ago














      • 2




        Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
        – So Lo
        11 hours ago












      • Yes!$!!!!!$
        – Travis
        11 hours ago








      2




      2




      Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
      – So Lo
      11 hours ago






      Maximum possible order of element in $D_{3} = 3$ and in $D_{4}=4$. So maximum possible order of element in $D_{3}oplus D_{4} = lcm(3,4)= 12$. Will this work?
      – So Lo
      11 hours ago














      Yes!$!!!!!$
      – Travis
      11 hours ago




      Yes!$!!!!!$
      – Travis
      11 hours ago










      up vote
      2
      down vote













      Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.



      If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are




      • $n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;


      • $n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.



      So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.



      If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.



      If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
      $$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
      and
      $$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$



      If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.






      share|cite|improve this answer



























        up vote
        2
        down vote













        Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.



        If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are




        • $n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;


        • $n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.



        So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.



        If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.



        If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
        $$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
        and
        $$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$



        If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.






        share|cite|improve this answer

























          up vote
          2
          down vote










          up vote
          2
          down vote









          Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.



          If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are




          • $n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;


          • $n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.



          So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.



          If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.



          If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
          $$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
          and
          $$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$



          If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.






          share|cite|improve this answer














          Here is a stronger result (related to this thread). I claim that the dihedral group $D_n$ is decomposable if and only if $nequiv 2pmod{4}$. (In particular, when $n=24$, we have $nnotequiv 2pmod{4}$, so $D_n=D_{24}$ is indecomposable, so you can't write $D_{24}=D_3times D_4$.) The case $nin{1,2}$ is easy. We now assume that $ngeq 3$.



          If $D_n=Atimes B$ for some non-trivial subgroups $A$ and $B$, then $A$ and $B$ are normal subgroups of $D_n$, and $Acap B={1}$. Write $D_n=langle R,Frangle$, where $R^n=F^2=1$ and $(RF)^2=1$ as given here. Then, the normal subgroups of $D_n$ are




          • $n$ odd: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$;


          • $n$ even: $langle R^drangle$ where $d$ is a divisor of $n$, and two more $langle R^2,Frangle$ and $langle R^2,RFrangle$.



          So, if $n$ is odd, then both $A$ and $B$ are subgroups of the cyclic subgroup $langle Rrangle$, which means $A$ and $B$ are abelian, and so $D_n=Atimes B$ is abelian, which is a contradiciton.



          If $ngeq 4$ is even, then exactly one of $A$ and $B$ takes the form $langle R^2,Frangle$ or $langle R^2,RFrangle$. WLOG, $A$ is of such a form. Then, $Acong D_{n/2}$. So, $B$ must be isomorphic to the cyclic group $C_2$ of order $2$.



          If $nequiv 2pmod{4}$, then we can take $A=langle R^2,Frangle$ and $B=langle R^{n/2}rangle$ to see that $$D_n=Atimes Bcong D_{n/2}times C_2.$$ In fact, there are exactly two ways to decompose $D_n$ into a direct product of non-trivial subgroups:
          $$D_n=langle R^2,Frangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle$$
          and
          $$D_n=langle R^2,RFrangle times langle R^{n/2}rangle.$$



          If $4mid n$, then all elements of order $2$ of $D_n$ are $R^{n/2}$ and $R^kF$. But the subgroup generated by $R^kF$ is not normal, and $R^{n/2} in A$ because $frac{n}{2}$ is even. Therefore, $A$ and $B$ cannot exist. Hence, $D_n$ is indecomposable when $4mid n$.







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          edited 7 hours ago

























          answered 11 hours ago









          Zvi

          3,215222




          3,215222






















              up vote
              0
              down vote













              HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.






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                up vote
                0
                down vote













                HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.






                share|cite|improve this answer























                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote










                  up vote
                  0
                  down vote









                  HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.






                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  HINT: Look at the commutator subgroups of elements of order three in both groups.







                  share|cite|improve this answer












                  share|cite|improve this answer



                  share|cite|improve this answer










                  answered 11 hours ago









                  Josué Tonelli-Cueto

                  3,6521027




                  3,6521027






























                       

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