Is sound the best way to transmit a signal under water?












5














Could sound be used in transmitting sound waves under water digitally? Could the sound then be converted by a repeater to transit by radio waves? What other ways can a signal be transmitted other than sound over long distances under water?



https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/32421/how-would-a-transmission-be-relayed-through-bottom-of-europa-ocean-to-earth










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  • 1




    This might be a better fit for electronics.stackexchange.com, fyi
    – Robert L.
    Nov 29 at 22:38






  • 1




    the way to do that is flag your post as being in need of moderator attention
    – Robert L.
    Nov 29 at 23:08












  • Migration failed because Muze is currently suspended from the Electronics SE site. Reopening here.
    – Peter K.
    Nov 30 at 0:27






  • 2




    Do you care about marine life? The collection of answers that you'll get if you do will be a different to that if you don't.
    – UKMonkey
    Nov 30 at 10:16






  • 1




    Visible light (especially blue but also green) can also be used: example paper
    – Chris H
    Nov 30 at 11:35
















5














Could sound be used in transmitting sound waves under water digitally? Could the sound then be converted by a repeater to transit by radio waves? What other ways can a signal be transmitted other than sound over long distances under water?



https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/32421/how-would-a-transmission-be-relayed-through-bottom-of-europa-ocean-to-earth










share|improve this question




















  • 1




    This might be a better fit for electronics.stackexchange.com, fyi
    – Robert L.
    Nov 29 at 22:38






  • 1




    the way to do that is flag your post as being in need of moderator attention
    – Robert L.
    Nov 29 at 23:08












  • Migration failed because Muze is currently suspended from the Electronics SE site. Reopening here.
    – Peter K.
    Nov 30 at 0:27






  • 2




    Do you care about marine life? The collection of answers that you'll get if you do will be a different to that if you don't.
    – UKMonkey
    Nov 30 at 10:16






  • 1




    Visible light (especially blue but also green) can also be used: example paper
    – Chris H
    Nov 30 at 11:35














5












5








5







Could sound be used in transmitting sound waves under water digitally? Could the sound then be converted by a repeater to transit by radio waves? What other ways can a signal be transmitted other than sound over long distances under water?



https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/32421/how-would-a-transmission-be-relayed-through-bottom-of-europa-ocean-to-earth










share|improve this question















Could sound be used in transmitting sound waves under water digitally? Could the sound then be converted by a repeater to transit by radio waves? What other ways can a signal be transmitted other than sound over long distances under water?



https://space.stackexchange.com/questions/32421/how-would-a-transmission-be-relayed-through-bottom-of-europa-ocean-to-earth







filter-design preprocessing






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share|improve this question













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share|improve this question








edited Nov 30 at 20:38

























asked Nov 29 at 22:06









Muze

1329




1329








  • 1




    This might be a better fit for electronics.stackexchange.com, fyi
    – Robert L.
    Nov 29 at 22:38






  • 1




    the way to do that is flag your post as being in need of moderator attention
    – Robert L.
    Nov 29 at 23:08












  • Migration failed because Muze is currently suspended from the Electronics SE site. Reopening here.
    – Peter K.
    Nov 30 at 0:27






  • 2




    Do you care about marine life? The collection of answers that you'll get if you do will be a different to that if you don't.
    – UKMonkey
    Nov 30 at 10:16






  • 1




    Visible light (especially blue but also green) can also be used: example paper
    – Chris H
    Nov 30 at 11:35














  • 1




    This might be a better fit for electronics.stackexchange.com, fyi
    – Robert L.
    Nov 29 at 22:38






  • 1




    the way to do that is flag your post as being in need of moderator attention
    – Robert L.
    Nov 29 at 23:08












  • Migration failed because Muze is currently suspended from the Electronics SE site. Reopening here.
    – Peter K.
    Nov 30 at 0:27






  • 2




    Do you care about marine life? The collection of answers that you'll get if you do will be a different to that if you don't.
    – UKMonkey
    Nov 30 at 10:16






  • 1




    Visible light (especially blue but also green) can also be used: example paper
    – Chris H
    Nov 30 at 11:35








1




1




This might be a better fit for electronics.stackexchange.com, fyi
– Robert L.
Nov 29 at 22:38




This might be a better fit for electronics.stackexchange.com, fyi
– Robert L.
Nov 29 at 22:38




1




1




the way to do that is flag your post as being in need of moderator attention
– Robert L.
Nov 29 at 23:08






the way to do that is flag your post as being in need of moderator attention
– Robert L.
Nov 29 at 23:08














Migration failed because Muze is currently suspended from the Electronics SE site. Reopening here.
– Peter K.
Nov 30 at 0:27




Migration failed because Muze is currently suspended from the Electronics SE site. Reopening here.
– Peter K.
Nov 30 at 0:27




2




2




Do you care about marine life? The collection of answers that you'll get if you do will be a different to that if you don't.
– UKMonkey
Nov 30 at 10:16




Do you care about marine life? The collection of answers that you'll get if you do will be a different to that if you don't.
– UKMonkey
Nov 30 at 10:16




1




1




Visible light (especially blue but also green) can also be used: example paper
– Chris H
Nov 30 at 11:35




Visible light (especially blue but also green) can also be used: example paper
– Chris H
Nov 30 at 11:35










7 Answers
7






active

oldest

votes


















7














Yes, it is called acoustic communications. Here is an example of a paper that uses orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM) in an underwater acoustic channel.



EDIT:



Note that you wouldn't call it a SONAR any more because SONAR stands for SOund Navigation And Ranging, whereas this is a communication system, just like you wouldn't call your cell phone a radar.



EDIT 2:



Yes, the signal could be converted to a radio signal at a repeater. The repeater would ideally be floating in the surface and have a transducer (which is basically a microphone or array of microphones) on the underwater side to receive the sound waves. The transducer converts the sound waves into an electrical signal, which can be filtered and/or amplified, and then sent to an antenna for radio transmission. The antenna would likely need to be above water because radio waves don't propagate very far through water.






share|improve this answer























  • Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
    – Muze
    Nov 29 at 22:11










  • @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
    – Robert L.
    Nov 29 at 22:12






  • 3




    @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
    – Robert L.
    Nov 29 at 22:25










  • There is a comment on how light could be used but I am not sure if it is the best way using blue light.
    – Muze
    Nov 30 at 20:37



















6














to be picky, RF is strongly attenuated is salt water.



Fresh water is much less attenuated. During WW2 submerged submarines could use their radios in Lake Michigan.



Very low frequency RF communications is possible in salt water. The bit rate is very low.



Fiber optic cables work well too.



Acoustics tend to be attenuated as well.






share|improve this answer































    4














    Yes, actually sound waves are better than RF signal in underwater, because of the low frequency requirement. We don't covert sound waves to radio signals. The transceiver in this case is called transducer.



    EDIT: You have basically three options for wireless communication in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.



    After a quick search, it seems that sonobuoys seem to have antennas that are kept above the surface to communicate with an aircraft or a ship. This is not an underwater wireless communication. The goal of underwater acoustic systems is to exchange information "wirelessly" between nodes underwater, and then with a central node at the surface that uses RF signals to communication with a center for further analysis/decisions.






    share|improve this answer























    • but is the best method?
      – Muze
      Nov 29 at 23:30










    • Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
      – BlackMath
      Nov 29 at 23:32






    • 1




      @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
      – BlackMath
      Nov 30 at 1:29








    • 1




      sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
      – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
      Nov 30 at 1:48






    • 1




      I certainly was not suggesting that- my point was to show that that can’t be done underwater specifically (if wavelength was the only issue and not the loss factors irregardless of wavelength then we could do that as we do in air.
      – Dan Boschen
      Nov 30 at 5:37



















    3














    You have 3 ways of communicating underwater



    1) Acoustic : Most popular means of communication. Has high latency but good range



    2) Low frequency RF. To increase the range you have to lower the frequency, which means small bandwidth, so you can't transmit a lot of information.



    3) Optical: Low latency + High bandwidth but the range is limited to less than ~100 meters






    share|improve this answer





















    • Your optical is really quite wrong. Fibre optic cables are the goto for communications across the Atlantic; and while they do have repeaters, the range is quite a lot more than 100m.
      – UKMonkey
      Nov 30 at 10:25






    • 2




      @UKMonkey these are the methods that use water as the transmission medium , I assumed OP was interested in wireless underwater communication
      – Spatula
      Nov 30 at 10:57





















    3














    The best way for underwater communication is to be acoustic communication where sound waves are used. Sometimes, visible light is used such as red and green, but in all cases, acoustic communication is common and used more.



    Underwater acoustic communication is considered as one of wireless networks types. but it's more complicated, I can say the most difficult environment to deal with.



    The channel can't be time-invariant. however, in simulation, we can consider it as time-invariant, bit in reality it is not. It's considered as double selective channel. That makes the channel very difficult to estimate and equalize.



    The bandwidth in underwater acoustic communication is very limited, that's another issue in that environment.



    In most cases, there is not a LOS, it's very multi-path environment, and pathes are interfered with each other. Nowadays, OFDM is one of main solution for that, but because of the long delay, OFDM required longer CP, that will make the data rate limited too ! .. at the same time, the time variant channel required pilots for channel estimation which will make the data rate really limited too. (To generalize, the guard interval must be long to avoid the Inter symbol interference)



    That area, is very common for searching and developing since it still has many many issues



    Good luck






    share|improve this answer





























      2














      This is incredibly common in aquatic robotics. There are multiple uses for underwater acoustic communication such as data transfer, localization to a surface vessel, mission control etc.






      share|improve this answer





























        1














        From a data transference point of view, yes; RF signals don't last well in salt water, whereas sound travels considerably better.



        But...



        If you're planning to try this on Earth, be aware that oceanic noise pollution is a problem, and if you need to communicate over large distances you'll need to make a loud noise. Consider using RF first; you'll get a low bit-rate, but it might be a better way to transfer the signal if the acoustic bands are already being used by marine life.






        share|improve this answer





















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          7 Answers
          7






          active

          oldest

          votes








          7 Answers
          7






          active

          oldest

          votes









          active

          oldest

          votes






          active

          oldest

          votes









          7














          Yes, it is called acoustic communications. Here is an example of a paper that uses orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM) in an underwater acoustic channel.



          EDIT:



          Note that you wouldn't call it a SONAR any more because SONAR stands for SOund Navigation And Ranging, whereas this is a communication system, just like you wouldn't call your cell phone a radar.



          EDIT 2:



          Yes, the signal could be converted to a radio signal at a repeater. The repeater would ideally be floating in the surface and have a transducer (which is basically a microphone or array of microphones) on the underwater side to receive the sound waves. The transducer converts the sound waves into an electrical signal, which can be filtered and/or amplified, and then sent to an antenna for radio transmission. The antenna would likely need to be above water because radio waves don't propagate very far through water.






          share|improve this answer























          • Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
            – Muze
            Nov 29 at 22:11










          • @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
            – Robert L.
            Nov 29 at 22:12






          • 3




            @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
            – Robert L.
            Nov 29 at 22:25










          • There is a comment on how light could be used but I am not sure if it is the best way using blue light.
            – Muze
            Nov 30 at 20:37
















          7














          Yes, it is called acoustic communications. Here is an example of a paper that uses orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM) in an underwater acoustic channel.



          EDIT:



          Note that you wouldn't call it a SONAR any more because SONAR stands for SOund Navigation And Ranging, whereas this is a communication system, just like you wouldn't call your cell phone a radar.



          EDIT 2:



          Yes, the signal could be converted to a radio signal at a repeater. The repeater would ideally be floating in the surface and have a transducer (which is basically a microphone or array of microphones) on the underwater side to receive the sound waves. The transducer converts the sound waves into an electrical signal, which can be filtered and/or amplified, and then sent to an antenna for radio transmission. The antenna would likely need to be above water because radio waves don't propagate very far through water.






          share|improve this answer























          • Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
            – Muze
            Nov 29 at 22:11










          • @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
            – Robert L.
            Nov 29 at 22:12






          • 3




            @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
            – Robert L.
            Nov 29 at 22:25










          • There is a comment on how light could be used but I am not sure if it is the best way using blue light.
            – Muze
            Nov 30 at 20:37














          7












          7








          7






          Yes, it is called acoustic communications. Here is an example of a paper that uses orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM) in an underwater acoustic channel.



          EDIT:



          Note that you wouldn't call it a SONAR any more because SONAR stands for SOund Navigation And Ranging, whereas this is a communication system, just like you wouldn't call your cell phone a radar.



          EDIT 2:



          Yes, the signal could be converted to a radio signal at a repeater. The repeater would ideally be floating in the surface and have a transducer (which is basically a microphone or array of microphones) on the underwater side to receive the sound waves. The transducer converts the sound waves into an electrical signal, which can be filtered and/or amplified, and then sent to an antenna for radio transmission. The antenna would likely need to be above water because radio waves don't propagate very far through water.






          share|improve this answer














          Yes, it is called acoustic communications. Here is an example of a paper that uses orthogonal frequency division multiplexing (OFDM) in an underwater acoustic channel.



          EDIT:



          Note that you wouldn't call it a SONAR any more because SONAR stands for SOund Navigation And Ranging, whereas this is a communication system, just like you wouldn't call your cell phone a radar.



          EDIT 2:



          Yes, the signal could be converted to a radio signal at a repeater. The repeater would ideally be floating in the surface and have a transducer (which is basically a microphone or array of microphones) on the underwater side to receive the sound waves. The transducer converts the sound waves into an electrical signal, which can be filtered and/or amplified, and then sent to an antenna for radio transmission. The antenna would likely need to be above water because radio waves don't propagate very far through water.







          share|improve this answer














          share|improve this answer



          share|improve this answer








          edited Nov 29 at 22:23

























          answered Nov 29 at 22:09









          Robert L.

          1,461316




          1,461316












          • Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
            – Muze
            Nov 29 at 22:11










          • @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
            – Robert L.
            Nov 29 at 22:12






          • 3




            @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
            – Robert L.
            Nov 29 at 22:25










          • There is a comment on how light could be used but I am not sure if it is the best way using blue light.
            – Muze
            Nov 30 at 20:37


















          • Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
            – Muze
            Nov 29 at 22:11










          • @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
            – Robert L.
            Nov 29 at 22:12






          • 3




            @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
            – Robert L.
            Nov 29 at 22:25










          • There is a comment on how light could be used but I am not sure if it is the best way using blue light.
            – Muze
            Nov 30 at 20:37
















          Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
          – Muze
          Nov 29 at 22:11




          Thank you if Ok I may add illustration of this?
          – Muze
          Nov 29 at 22:11












          @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
          – Robert L.
          Nov 29 at 22:12




          @Muze are you talking about taking a figure from the paper? If so, you'd need copyright permission from IEEE
          – Robert L.
          Nov 29 at 22:12




          3




          3




          @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
          – Robert L.
          Nov 29 at 22:25




          @Muze just go to scholar.google.com and search "underwater acoustic communications". You will find a lot of papers on the subject
          – Robert L.
          Nov 29 at 22:25












          There is a comment on how light could be used but I am not sure if it is the best way using blue light.
          – Muze
          Nov 30 at 20:37




          There is a comment on how light could be used but I am not sure if it is the best way using blue light.
          – Muze
          Nov 30 at 20:37











          6














          to be picky, RF is strongly attenuated is salt water.



          Fresh water is much less attenuated. During WW2 submerged submarines could use their radios in Lake Michigan.



          Very low frequency RF communications is possible in salt water. The bit rate is very low.



          Fiber optic cables work well too.



          Acoustics tend to be attenuated as well.






          share|improve this answer




























            6














            to be picky, RF is strongly attenuated is salt water.



            Fresh water is much less attenuated. During WW2 submerged submarines could use their radios in Lake Michigan.



            Very low frequency RF communications is possible in salt water. The bit rate is very low.



            Fiber optic cables work well too.



            Acoustics tend to be attenuated as well.






            share|improve this answer


























              6












              6








              6






              to be picky, RF is strongly attenuated is salt water.



              Fresh water is much less attenuated. During WW2 submerged submarines could use their radios in Lake Michigan.



              Very low frequency RF communications is possible in salt water. The bit rate is very low.



              Fiber optic cables work well too.



              Acoustics tend to be attenuated as well.






              share|improve this answer














              to be picky, RF is strongly attenuated is salt water.



              Fresh water is much less attenuated. During WW2 submerged submarines could use their radios in Lake Michigan.



              Very low frequency RF communications is possible in salt water. The bit rate is very low.



              Fiber optic cables work well too.



              Acoustics tend to be attenuated as well.







              share|improve this answer














              share|improve this answer



              share|improve this answer








              edited Nov 30 at 0:54

























              answered Nov 30 at 0:33









              Stanley Pawlukiewicz

              5,9432421




              5,9432421























                  4














                  Yes, actually sound waves are better than RF signal in underwater, because of the low frequency requirement. We don't covert sound waves to radio signals. The transceiver in this case is called transducer.



                  EDIT: You have basically three options for wireless communication in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.



                  After a quick search, it seems that sonobuoys seem to have antennas that are kept above the surface to communicate with an aircraft or a ship. This is not an underwater wireless communication. The goal of underwater acoustic systems is to exchange information "wirelessly" between nodes underwater, and then with a central node at the surface that uses RF signals to communication with a center for further analysis/decisions.






                  share|improve this answer























                  • but is the best method?
                    – Muze
                    Nov 29 at 23:30










                  • Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
                    – BlackMath
                    Nov 29 at 23:32






                  • 1




                    @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
                    – BlackMath
                    Nov 30 at 1:29








                  • 1




                    sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
                    – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
                    Nov 30 at 1:48






                  • 1




                    I certainly was not suggesting that- my point was to show that that can’t be done underwater specifically (if wavelength was the only issue and not the loss factors irregardless of wavelength then we could do that as we do in air.
                    – Dan Boschen
                    Nov 30 at 5:37
















                  4














                  Yes, actually sound waves are better than RF signal in underwater, because of the low frequency requirement. We don't covert sound waves to radio signals. The transceiver in this case is called transducer.



                  EDIT: You have basically three options for wireless communication in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.



                  After a quick search, it seems that sonobuoys seem to have antennas that are kept above the surface to communicate with an aircraft or a ship. This is not an underwater wireless communication. The goal of underwater acoustic systems is to exchange information "wirelessly" between nodes underwater, and then with a central node at the surface that uses RF signals to communication with a center for further analysis/decisions.






                  share|improve this answer























                  • but is the best method?
                    – Muze
                    Nov 29 at 23:30










                  • Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
                    – BlackMath
                    Nov 29 at 23:32






                  • 1




                    @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
                    – BlackMath
                    Nov 30 at 1:29








                  • 1




                    sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
                    – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
                    Nov 30 at 1:48






                  • 1




                    I certainly was not suggesting that- my point was to show that that can’t be done underwater specifically (if wavelength was the only issue and not the loss factors irregardless of wavelength then we could do that as we do in air.
                    – Dan Boschen
                    Nov 30 at 5:37














                  4












                  4








                  4






                  Yes, actually sound waves are better than RF signal in underwater, because of the low frequency requirement. We don't covert sound waves to radio signals. The transceiver in this case is called transducer.



                  EDIT: You have basically three options for wireless communication in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.



                  After a quick search, it seems that sonobuoys seem to have antennas that are kept above the surface to communicate with an aircraft or a ship. This is not an underwater wireless communication. The goal of underwater acoustic systems is to exchange information "wirelessly" between nodes underwater, and then with a central node at the surface that uses RF signals to communication with a center for further analysis/decisions.






                  share|improve this answer














                  Yes, actually sound waves are better than RF signal in underwater, because of the low frequency requirement. We don't covert sound waves to radio signals. The transceiver in this case is called transducer.



                  EDIT: You have basically three options for wireless communication in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.



                  After a quick search, it seems that sonobuoys seem to have antennas that are kept above the surface to communicate with an aircraft or a ship. This is not an underwater wireless communication. The goal of underwater acoustic systems is to exchange information "wirelessly" between nodes underwater, and then with a central node at the surface that uses RF signals to communication with a center for further analysis/decisions.







                  share|improve this answer














                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer








                  edited Nov 30 at 5:50

























                  answered Nov 29 at 23:28









                  BlackMath

                  9713




                  9713












                  • but is the best method?
                    – Muze
                    Nov 29 at 23:30










                  • Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
                    – BlackMath
                    Nov 29 at 23:32






                  • 1




                    @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
                    – BlackMath
                    Nov 30 at 1:29








                  • 1




                    sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
                    – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
                    Nov 30 at 1:48






                  • 1




                    I certainly was not suggesting that- my point was to show that that can’t be done underwater specifically (if wavelength was the only issue and not the loss factors irregardless of wavelength then we could do that as we do in air.
                    – Dan Boschen
                    Nov 30 at 5:37


















                  • but is the best method?
                    – Muze
                    Nov 29 at 23:30










                  • Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
                    – BlackMath
                    Nov 29 at 23:32






                  • 1




                    @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
                    – BlackMath
                    Nov 30 at 1:29








                  • 1




                    sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
                    – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
                    Nov 30 at 1:48






                  • 1




                    I certainly was not suggesting that- my point was to show that that can’t be done underwater specifically (if wavelength was the only issue and not the loss factors irregardless of wavelength then we could do that as we do in air.
                    – Dan Boschen
                    Nov 30 at 5:37
















                  but is the best method?
                  – Muze
                  Nov 29 at 23:30




                  but is the best method?
                  – Muze
                  Nov 29 at 23:30












                  Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
                  – BlackMath
                  Nov 29 at 23:32




                  Yes, because RF signals have high path loss in underwater, and low frequency signals mean very large antennas, which require more space and more power.
                  – BlackMath
                  Nov 29 at 23:32




                  1




                  1




                  @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
                  – BlackMath
                  Nov 30 at 1:29






                  @Muze You have basically three options in underwater: RF signals, acoustic signals, and optical signals. RF signals suffer from large path loss, and the range of transmission is in meters. Optical signals suffer from scattering. Acoustic signals suffer from low propagation speed (~1500 m/s), but the transmission range is better than RF signals. Also, you don't need large antennas when transmitting low frequency acoustic signals, which is the case for RF signals. The bandwidth can be increased by using relay-assisted systems.
                  – BlackMath
                  Nov 30 at 1:29






                  1




                  1




                  sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
                  – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
                  Nov 30 at 1:48




                  sonobuoys convert sound to rf.
                  – Stanley Pawlukiewicz
                  Nov 30 at 1:48




                  1




                  1




                  I certainly was not suggesting that- my point was to show that that can’t be done underwater specifically (if wavelength was the only issue and not the loss factors irregardless of wavelength then we could do that as we do in air.
                  – Dan Boschen
                  Nov 30 at 5:37




                  I certainly was not suggesting that- my point was to show that that can’t be done underwater specifically (if wavelength was the only issue and not the loss factors irregardless of wavelength then we could do that as we do in air.
                  – Dan Boschen
                  Nov 30 at 5:37











                  3














                  You have 3 ways of communicating underwater



                  1) Acoustic : Most popular means of communication. Has high latency but good range



                  2) Low frequency RF. To increase the range you have to lower the frequency, which means small bandwidth, so you can't transmit a lot of information.



                  3) Optical: Low latency + High bandwidth but the range is limited to less than ~100 meters






                  share|improve this answer





















                  • Your optical is really quite wrong. Fibre optic cables are the goto for communications across the Atlantic; and while they do have repeaters, the range is quite a lot more than 100m.
                    – UKMonkey
                    Nov 30 at 10:25






                  • 2




                    @UKMonkey these are the methods that use water as the transmission medium , I assumed OP was interested in wireless underwater communication
                    – Spatula
                    Nov 30 at 10:57


















                  3














                  You have 3 ways of communicating underwater



                  1) Acoustic : Most popular means of communication. Has high latency but good range



                  2) Low frequency RF. To increase the range you have to lower the frequency, which means small bandwidth, so you can't transmit a lot of information.



                  3) Optical: Low latency + High bandwidth but the range is limited to less than ~100 meters






                  share|improve this answer





















                  • Your optical is really quite wrong. Fibre optic cables are the goto for communications across the Atlantic; and while they do have repeaters, the range is quite a lot more than 100m.
                    – UKMonkey
                    Nov 30 at 10:25






                  • 2




                    @UKMonkey these are the methods that use water as the transmission medium , I assumed OP was interested in wireless underwater communication
                    – Spatula
                    Nov 30 at 10:57
















                  3












                  3








                  3






                  You have 3 ways of communicating underwater



                  1) Acoustic : Most popular means of communication. Has high latency but good range



                  2) Low frequency RF. To increase the range you have to lower the frequency, which means small bandwidth, so you can't transmit a lot of information.



                  3) Optical: Low latency + High bandwidth but the range is limited to less than ~100 meters






                  share|improve this answer












                  You have 3 ways of communicating underwater



                  1) Acoustic : Most popular means of communication. Has high latency but good range



                  2) Low frequency RF. To increase the range you have to lower the frequency, which means small bandwidth, so you can't transmit a lot of information.



                  3) Optical: Low latency + High bandwidth but the range is limited to less than ~100 meters







                  share|improve this answer












                  share|improve this answer



                  share|improve this answer










                  answered Nov 30 at 10:22









                  Spatula

                  311




                  311












                  • Your optical is really quite wrong. Fibre optic cables are the goto for communications across the Atlantic; and while they do have repeaters, the range is quite a lot more than 100m.
                    – UKMonkey
                    Nov 30 at 10:25






                  • 2




                    @UKMonkey these are the methods that use water as the transmission medium , I assumed OP was interested in wireless underwater communication
                    – Spatula
                    Nov 30 at 10:57




















                  • Your optical is really quite wrong. Fibre optic cables are the goto for communications across the Atlantic; and while they do have repeaters, the range is quite a lot more than 100m.
                    – UKMonkey
                    Nov 30 at 10:25






                  • 2




                    @UKMonkey these are the methods that use water as the transmission medium , I assumed OP was interested in wireless underwater communication
                    – Spatula
                    Nov 30 at 10:57


















                  Your optical is really quite wrong. Fibre optic cables are the goto for communications across the Atlantic; and while they do have repeaters, the range is quite a lot more than 100m.
                  – UKMonkey
                  Nov 30 at 10:25




                  Your optical is really quite wrong. Fibre optic cables are the goto for communications across the Atlantic; and while they do have repeaters, the range is quite a lot more than 100m.
                  – UKMonkey
                  Nov 30 at 10:25




                  2




                  2




                  @UKMonkey these are the methods that use water as the transmission medium , I assumed OP was interested in wireless underwater communication
                  – Spatula
                  Nov 30 at 10:57






                  @UKMonkey these are the methods that use water as the transmission medium , I assumed OP was interested in wireless underwater communication
                  – Spatula
                  Nov 30 at 10:57













                  3














                  The best way for underwater communication is to be acoustic communication where sound waves are used. Sometimes, visible light is used such as red and green, but in all cases, acoustic communication is common and used more.



                  Underwater acoustic communication is considered as one of wireless networks types. but it's more complicated, I can say the most difficult environment to deal with.



                  The channel can't be time-invariant. however, in simulation, we can consider it as time-invariant, bit in reality it is not. It's considered as double selective channel. That makes the channel very difficult to estimate and equalize.



                  The bandwidth in underwater acoustic communication is very limited, that's another issue in that environment.



                  In most cases, there is not a LOS, it's very multi-path environment, and pathes are interfered with each other. Nowadays, OFDM is one of main solution for that, but because of the long delay, OFDM required longer CP, that will make the data rate limited too ! .. at the same time, the time variant channel required pilots for channel estimation which will make the data rate really limited too. (To generalize, the guard interval must be long to avoid the Inter symbol interference)



                  That area, is very common for searching and developing since it still has many many issues



                  Good luck






                  share|improve this answer


























                    3














                    The best way for underwater communication is to be acoustic communication where sound waves are used. Sometimes, visible light is used such as red and green, but in all cases, acoustic communication is common and used more.



                    Underwater acoustic communication is considered as one of wireless networks types. but it's more complicated, I can say the most difficult environment to deal with.



                    The channel can't be time-invariant. however, in simulation, we can consider it as time-invariant, bit in reality it is not. It's considered as double selective channel. That makes the channel very difficult to estimate and equalize.



                    The bandwidth in underwater acoustic communication is very limited, that's another issue in that environment.



                    In most cases, there is not a LOS, it's very multi-path environment, and pathes are interfered with each other. Nowadays, OFDM is one of main solution for that, but because of the long delay, OFDM required longer CP, that will make the data rate limited too ! .. at the same time, the time variant channel required pilots for channel estimation which will make the data rate really limited too. (To generalize, the guard interval must be long to avoid the Inter symbol interference)



                    That area, is very common for searching and developing since it still has many many issues



                    Good luck






                    share|improve this answer
























                      3












                      3








                      3






                      The best way for underwater communication is to be acoustic communication where sound waves are used. Sometimes, visible light is used such as red and green, but in all cases, acoustic communication is common and used more.



                      Underwater acoustic communication is considered as one of wireless networks types. but it's more complicated, I can say the most difficult environment to deal with.



                      The channel can't be time-invariant. however, in simulation, we can consider it as time-invariant, bit in reality it is not. It's considered as double selective channel. That makes the channel very difficult to estimate and equalize.



                      The bandwidth in underwater acoustic communication is very limited, that's another issue in that environment.



                      In most cases, there is not a LOS, it's very multi-path environment, and pathes are interfered with each other. Nowadays, OFDM is one of main solution for that, but because of the long delay, OFDM required longer CP, that will make the data rate limited too ! .. at the same time, the time variant channel required pilots for channel estimation which will make the data rate really limited too. (To generalize, the guard interval must be long to avoid the Inter symbol interference)



                      That area, is very common for searching and developing since it still has many many issues



                      Good luck






                      share|improve this answer












                      The best way for underwater communication is to be acoustic communication where sound waves are used. Sometimes, visible light is used such as red and green, but in all cases, acoustic communication is common and used more.



                      Underwater acoustic communication is considered as one of wireless networks types. but it's more complicated, I can say the most difficult environment to deal with.



                      The channel can't be time-invariant. however, in simulation, we can consider it as time-invariant, bit in reality it is not. It's considered as double selective channel. That makes the channel very difficult to estimate and equalize.



                      The bandwidth in underwater acoustic communication is very limited, that's another issue in that environment.



                      In most cases, there is not a LOS, it's very multi-path environment, and pathes are interfered with each other. Nowadays, OFDM is one of main solution for that, but because of the long delay, OFDM required longer CP, that will make the data rate limited too ! .. at the same time, the time variant channel required pilots for channel estimation which will make the data rate really limited too. (To generalize, the guard interval must be long to avoid the Inter symbol interference)



                      That area, is very common for searching and developing since it still has many many issues



                      Good luck







                      share|improve this answer












                      share|improve this answer



                      share|improve this answer










                      answered Dec 3 at 7:24









                      Zeyad_Zeyad

                      5998




                      5998























                          2














                          This is incredibly common in aquatic robotics. There are multiple uses for underwater acoustic communication such as data transfer, localization to a surface vessel, mission control etc.






                          share|improve this answer


























                            2














                            This is incredibly common in aquatic robotics. There are multiple uses for underwater acoustic communication such as data transfer, localization to a surface vessel, mission control etc.






                            share|improve this answer
























                              2












                              2








                              2






                              This is incredibly common in aquatic robotics. There are multiple uses for underwater acoustic communication such as data transfer, localization to a surface vessel, mission control etc.






                              share|improve this answer












                              This is incredibly common in aquatic robotics. There are multiple uses for underwater acoustic communication such as data transfer, localization to a surface vessel, mission control etc.







                              share|improve this answer












                              share|improve this answer



                              share|improve this answer










                              answered Nov 30 at 1:42









                              Octopuscabbage

                              211




                              211























                                  1














                                  From a data transference point of view, yes; RF signals don't last well in salt water, whereas sound travels considerably better.



                                  But...



                                  If you're planning to try this on Earth, be aware that oceanic noise pollution is a problem, and if you need to communicate over large distances you'll need to make a loud noise. Consider using RF first; you'll get a low bit-rate, but it might be a better way to transfer the signal if the acoustic bands are already being used by marine life.






                                  share|improve this answer


























                                    1














                                    From a data transference point of view, yes; RF signals don't last well in salt water, whereas sound travels considerably better.



                                    But...



                                    If you're planning to try this on Earth, be aware that oceanic noise pollution is a problem, and if you need to communicate over large distances you'll need to make a loud noise. Consider using RF first; you'll get a low bit-rate, but it might be a better way to transfer the signal if the acoustic bands are already being used by marine life.






                                    share|improve this answer
























                                      1












                                      1








                                      1






                                      From a data transference point of view, yes; RF signals don't last well in salt water, whereas sound travels considerably better.



                                      But...



                                      If you're planning to try this on Earth, be aware that oceanic noise pollution is a problem, and if you need to communicate over large distances you'll need to make a loud noise. Consider using RF first; you'll get a low bit-rate, but it might be a better way to transfer the signal if the acoustic bands are already being used by marine life.






                                      share|improve this answer












                                      From a data transference point of view, yes; RF signals don't last well in salt water, whereas sound travels considerably better.



                                      But...



                                      If you're planning to try this on Earth, be aware that oceanic noise pollution is a problem, and if you need to communicate over large distances you'll need to make a loud noise. Consider using RF first; you'll get a low bit-rate, but it might be a better way to transfer the signal if the acoustic bands are already being used by marine life.







                                      share|improve this answer












                                      share|improve this answer



                                      share|improve this answer










                                      answered Nov 30 at 18:18









                                      wizzwizz4

                                      1114




                                      1114






























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