Homomorphism and relative order questions












1














1) I have to prove that if $exists$ a nontrivial homomorphism $phi:Arightarrow B$, where A and B are finite and Abelian, then $|A|$ and $|B|$ are not relatively prime.



I know that $phi(A)$ is a subgroup of $B$ and $because$ $B$ is Abelian $phi(A)triangleleft B$. So I think $phi(A) | |B|$ but I can't draw a connection between $|A|$ and $|B|$. Figured this out now. $A/Ker(phi) cong phi(A)$, by Lagrange's, $|A/Ker(phi)|$ divides $|A|$ and hence $|phi(A)|$ divides $|A|$. Therefore, $|A|$ and $|B|$ are not relatively prime.



2) Deduce that $exists$ a nontrivial homomorphism $Brightarrow A$

Do we have to prove the converse of (1) because the orders are relatively prime? Figured it out. We can use the same argument as above.










share|cite|improve this question
























  • (1): Show that the order of $phi(A)$ is a divisor of $|A|$.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:29










  • Made an edit, able to show for elements of A but how can I do that for the whole group A?
    – manifolded
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:53










  • You can use the isomorphism theorems and Lagrange’s Theorem.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:55










  • And, no, the fact that The order of $phi(a)$ divides the order of $a$ for each $a$ does not “lead” to $|phi(A)|$ dividing $|A|$. It’s actually the other way around.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 21:02












  • True, was able to show $|A/N|$ divides $|A|$ and $A/N cong phi(A)$ and hence $phi(A)$ dividies $|A|$. Thanks for the hint. How about part (2)?
    – manifolded
    Dec 3 '18 at 21:06
















1














1) I have to prove that if $exists$ a nontrivial homomorphism $phi:Arightarrow B$, where A and B are finite and Abelian, then $|A|$ and $|B|$ are not relatively prime.



I know that $phi(A)$ is a subgroup of $B$ and $because$ $B$ is Abelian $phi(A)triangleleft B$. So I think $phi(A) | |B|$ but I can't draw a connection between $|A|$ and $|B|$. Figured this out now. $A/Ker(phi) cong phi(A)$, by Lagrange's, $|A/Ker(phi)|$ divides $|A|$ and hence $|phi(A)|$ divides $|A|$. Therefore, $|A|$ and $|B|$ are not relatively prime.



2) Deduce that $exists$ a nontrivial homomorphism $Brightarrow A$

Do we have to prove the converse of (1) because the orders are relatively prime? Figured it out. We can use the same argument as above.










share|cite|improve this question
























  • (1): Show that the order of $phi(A)$ is a divisor of $|A|$.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:29










  • Made an edit, able to show for elements of A but how can I do that for the whole group A?
    – manifolded
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:53










  • You can use the isomorphism theorems and Lagrange’s Theorem.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:55










  • And, no, the fact that The order of $phi(a)$ divides the order of $a$ for each $a$ does not “lead” to $|phi(A)|$ dividing $|A|$. It’s actually the other way around.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 21:02












  • True, was able to show $|A/N|$ divides $|A|$ and $A/N cong phi(A)$ and hence $phi(A)$ dividies $|A|$. Thanks for the hint. How about part (2)?
    – manifolded
    Dec 3 '18 at 21:06














1












1








1







1) I have to prove that if $exists$ a nontrivial homomorphism $phi:Arightarrow B$, where A and B are finite and Abelian, then $|A|$ and $|B|$ are not relatively prime.



I know that $phi(A)$ is a subgroup of $B$ and $because$ $B$ is Abelian $phi(A)triangleleft B$. So I think $phi(A) | |B|$ but I can't draw a connection between $|A|$ and $|B|$. Figured this out now. $A/Ker(phi) cong phi(A)$, by Lagrange's, $|A/Ker(phi)|$ divides $|A|$ and hence $|phi(A)|$ divides $|A|$. Therefore, $|A|$ and $|B|$ are not relatively prime.



2) Deduce that $exists$ a nontrivial homomorphism $Brightarrow A$

Do we have to prove the converse of (1) because the orders are relatively prime? Figured it out. We can use the same argument as above.










share|cite|improve this question















1) I have to prove that if $exists$ a nontrivial homomorphism $phi:Arightarrow B$, where A and B are finite and Abelian, then $|A|$ and $|B|$ are not relatively prime.



I know that $phi(A)$ is a subgroup of $B$ and $because$ $B$ is Abelian $phi(A)triangleleft B$. So I think $phi(A) | |B|$ but I can't draw a connection between $|A|$ and $|B|$. Figured this out now. $A/Ker(phi) cong phi(A)$, by Lagrange's, $|A/Ker(phi)|$ divides $|A|$ and hence $|phi(A)|$ divides $|A|$. Therefore, $|A|$ and $|B|$ are not relatively prime.



2) Deduce that $exists$ a nontrivial homomorphism $Brightarrow A$

Do we have to prove the converse of (1) because the orders are relatively prime? Figured it out. We can use the same argument as above.







abstract-algebra group-theory finite-groups abelian-groups group-homomorphism






share|cite|improve this question















share|cite|improve this question













share|cite|improve this question




share|cite|improve this question








edited Dec 3 '18 at 21:35

























asked Dec 3 '18 at 20:19









manifolded

615




615












  • (1): Show that the order of $phi(A)$ is a divisor of $|A|$.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:29










  • Made an edit, able to show for elements of A but how can I do that for the whole group A?
    – manifolded
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:53










  • You can use the isomorphism theorems and Lagrange’s Theorem.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:55










  • And, no, the fact that The order of $phi(a)$ divides the order of $a$ for each $a$ does not “lead” to $|phi(A)|$ dividing $|A|$. It’s actually the other way around.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 21:02












  • True, was able to show $|A/N|$ divides $|A|$ and $A/N cong phi(A)$ and hence $phi(A)$ dividies $|A|$. Thanks for the hint. How about part (2)?
    – manifolded
    Dec 3 '18 at 21:06


















  • (1): Show that the order of $phi(A)$ is a divisor of $|A|$.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:29










  • Made an edit, able to show for elements of A but how can I do that for the whole group A?
    – manifolded
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:53










  • You can use the isomorphism theorems and Lagrange’s Theorem.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 20:55










  • And, no, the fact that The order of $phi(a)$ divides the order of $a$ for each $a$ does not “lead” to $|phi(A)|$ dividing $|A|$. It’s actually the other way around.
    – Arturo Magidin
    Dec 3 '18 at 21:02












  • True, was able to show $|A/N|$ divides $|A|$ and $A/N cong phi(A)$ and hence $phi(A)$ dividies $|A|$. Thanks for the hint. How about part (2)?
    – manifolded
    Dec 3 '18 at 21:06
















(1): Show that the order of $phi(A)$ is a divisor of $|A|$.
– Arturo Magidin
Dec 3 '18 at 20:29




(1): Show that the order of $phi(A)$ is a divisor of $|A|$.
– Arturo Magidin
Dec 3 '18 at 20:29












Made an edit, able to show for elements of A but how can I do that for the whole group A?
– manifolded
Dec 3 '18 at 20:53




Made an edit, able to show for elements of A but how can I do that for the whole group A?
– manifolded
Dec 3 '18 at 20:53












You can use the isomorphism theorems and Lagrange’s Theorem.
– Arturo Magidin
Dec 3 '18 at 20:55




You can use the isomorphism theorems and Lagrange’s Theorem.
– Arturo Magidin
Dec 3 '18 at 20:55












And, no, the fact that The order of $phi(a)$ divides the order of $a$ for each $a$ does not “lead” to $|phi(A)|$ dividing $|A|$. It’s actually the other way around.
– Arturo Magidin
Dec 3 '18 at 21:02






And, no, the fact that The order of $phi(a)$ divides the order of $a$ for each $a$ does not “lead” to $|phi(A)|$ dividing $|A|$. It’s actually the other way around.
– Arturo Magidin
Dec 3 '18 at 21:02














True, was able to show $|A/N|$ divides $|A|$ and $A/N cong phi(A)$ and hence $phi(A)$ dividies $|A|$. Thanks for the hint. How about part (2)?
– manifolded
Dec 3 '18 at 21:06




True, was able to show $|A/N|$ divides $|A|$ and $A/N cong phi(A)$ and hence $phi(A)$ dividies $|A|$. Thanks for the hint. How about part (2)?
– manifolded
Dec 3 '18 at 21:06










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